Divine focus vs. grapples, and grease [Archive] - Wizards Community

Divine focus vs. grapples, and grease [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eightbitmage
10-13-07, 11:14 PM I've been thinking about this recently and was wondering what other people think.

First I believe that you have to have a divine focus in hand to cast a spell. If anyone can show me otherwise (I remember another thread where someone tried this) that will end everything right here. My reasoning is that under grapple it mentions that you must have any focus in hand to cast a spell in a grapple, I have always looked at a divine focus as a type of focus rather than its own category of component, so I conclude you must have it in hand.

That being said, would casting grease on a divine focus make it difficult for a cleric to cast a spell requiring a divine focus? My assumption is you could cast it on the DF and they get a reflex save, then if it works they drop it (not so bad if its on a chain), then every time they try to cast with it they must make a reflex save or be unable to cast. So I want to know if there are any issues with this. The first I think of is the "DF doesn't have to be in hand to cast" the second is that the short time it is in hand before it slips out allows you to cast the spell before you drop the DF. I'm sure there are more, so what would people rule on this? (BTW if it does work it strikes me as extreme cheese to use on a player, and an encounter killer against a high level NPC cleric, while I guess they could carry multiple DFs that strikes me as odd somehow)
calronmoonflower
10-13-07, 11:22 PM Treat it like a normal focus.

As for the grease, you cannot normally target hold/worn items.
Marcus Majarra
10-14-07, 12:52 AM As for the grease, you cannot normally target hold/worn items.
This is incorrect. As per PHB237, "an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect."
calronmoonflower
10-14-07, 01:11 AM This is incorrect. As per PHB237, "an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect."

:incog: Your right, Grease is an exception to the normal rule. That's what I get for not looking it up. :doh:
Marcus Majarra
10-14-07, 01:20 AM Your right, Grease is an exception to the normal rule. That's what I get for not looking it up.
I believe the normal rule you're referring to deals with sundering. Any spell that can target an object can be used on an object carried or worn by another creature, to my knowledge. Such spells have the (object) notation in their saving throw entry.
calronmoonflower
10-14-07, 02:44 AM I believe the normal rule you're referring to deals with sundering. Any spell that can target an object can be used on an object carried or worn by another creature, to my knowledge. Such spells have the (object) notation in their saving throw entry.

I found that rule on page 177. If it doesn't have such a line in the saving throw you cannot use it on worn objects, even if the spell could otherwise affect them. I believe this is for targeted spells that cause damage like Scorching Ray.
meabolex
10-15-07, 12:56 AM You also need it to turn undead:

Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).

In theory, you could just carry a pouch with a dozen holy symbols just to be safe (:
Eightbitmage
10-15-07, 03:35 PM So this really works? You cast grease on the holy symbol and if he fails the reflex save the cleric cannot cast spells with it unless he makes a reflex save every time he casts?
Marcus Majarra
10-15-07, 10:10 PM So this really works? You cast grease on the holy symbol and if he fails the reflex save the cleric cannot cast spells with it unless he makes a reflex save every time he casts?
To be precise, the symbol receives a Reflex save when the spell is cast to negate the effect (using the cleric's Reflex save or its own; seeing as most are nonmagical, you'll use the cleric's). If the save is failed and the symbol is in hand, the cleric drops it (requiring a move action to recover). After that, any kind of manipulation requires a Reflex save.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eightbitmage 10-13-07, 11:14 PM	I've been thinking about this recently and was wondering what other people think. First I believe that you have to have a divine focus in hand to cast a spell. If anyone can show me otherwise (I remember another thread where someone tried this) that will end everything right here. My reasoning is that under grapple it mentions that you must have any focus in hand to cast a spell in a grapple, I have always looked at a divine focus as a type of focus rather than its own category of component, so I conclude you must have it in hand. That being said, would casting grease on a divine focus make it difficult for a cleric to cast a spell requiring a divine focus? My assumption is you could cast it on the DF and they get a reflex save, then if it works they drop it (not so bad if its on a chain), then every time they try to cast with it they must make a reflex save or be unable to cast. So I want to know if there are any issues with this. The first I think of is the "DF doesn't have to be in hand to cast" the second is that the short time it is in hand before it slips out allows you to cast the spell before you drop the DF. I'm sure there are more, so what would people rule on this? (BTW if it does work it strikes me as extreme cheese to use on a player, and an encounter killer against a high level NPC cleric, while I guess they could carry multiple DFs that strikes me as odd somehow)
calronmoonflower 10-13-07, 11:22 PM	Treat it like a normal focus. As for the grease, you cannot normally target hold/worn items.
Marcus Majarra 10-14-07, 12:52 AM	As for the grease, you cannot normally target hold/worn items. This is incorrect. As per PHB237, "an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect."
calronmoonflower 10-14-07, 01:11 AM	This is incorrect. As per PHB237, "an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect." :incog: Your right, Grease is an exception to the normal rule. That's what I get for not looking it up. :doh:
Marcus Majarra 10-14-07, 01:20 AM	Your right, Grease is an exception to the normal rule. That's what I get for not looking it up. I believe the normal rule you're referring to deals with sundering. Any spell that can target an object can be used on an object carried or worn by another creature, to my knowledge. Such spells have the (object) notation in their saving throw entry.
calronmoonflower 10-14-07, 02:44 AM	I believe the normal rule you're referring to deals with sundering. Any spell that can target an object can be used on an object carried or worn by another creature, to my knowledge. Such spells have the (object) notation in their saving throw entry. I found that rule on page 177. If it doesn't have such a line in the saving throw you cannot use it on worn objects, even if the spell could otherwise affect them. I believe this is for targeted spells that cause damage like Scorching Ray.
meabolex 10-15-07, 12:56 AM	You also need it to turn undead: Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead). In theory, you could just carry a pouch with a dozen holy symbols just to be safe (:
Eightbitmage 10-15-07, 03:35 PM	So this really works? You cast grease on the holy symbol and if he fails the reflex save the cleric cannot cast spells with it unless he makes a reflex save every time he casts?
Marcus Majarra 10-15-07, 10:10 PM	So this really works? You cast grease on the holy symbol and if he fails the reflex save the cleric cannot cast spells with it unless he makes a reflex save every time he casts? To be precise, the symbol receives a Reflex save when the spell is cast to negate the effect (using the cleric's Reflex save or its own; seeing as most are nonmagical, you'll use the cleric's). If the save is failed and the symbol is in hand, the cleric drops it (requiring a move action to recover). After that, any kind of manipulation requires a Reflex save.