Divine surge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Divine surge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
likes2smash
11-21-07, 02:29 PM One of my players has been playing a crusader(lvl 8) in a premade adventure I started recently. Now It seems fine for the most part but the one maneuver which seems insane to me is Divine surge. I don't have the text in front of me but it basically allows the character to add 8d8 dmg to an attack once per encounter. The odd thing is that there is a higher lvl version (greater divine surge or something) which allows you to do 6d8 +2d8 for each point of con dmg you suffer. So in order to get the higher lvl ability on par with the initial one you need take a point of con dmg. Also in the fluff text for divine surge it says something to the effect that you channel divine power and it "leaves you drained" but there does not appear to be any side effect listed in the actual ability. I couldn't find any errata for Tome of Battle. Is there any? Is this maneuver really as good as it seems? Thanks. Sorry if this question has been asked before.
Merestil Haye
11-21-07, 03:18 PM One of my players has been playing a crusader(lvl 8) in a premade adventure I started recently. Now It seems fine for the most part but the one maneuver which seems insane to me is Divine surge. I don't have the text in front of me but it basically allows the character to add 8d8 dmg to an attack once per encounter. The odd thing is that there is a higher lvl version (greater divine surge or something) which allows you to do 6d8 +2d8 for each point of con dmg you suffer. So in order to get the higher lvl ability on par with the initial one you need take a point of con dmg. Also in the fluff text for divine surge it says something to the effect that you channel divine power and it "leaves you drained" but there does not appear to be any side effect listed in the actual ability. I couldn't find any errata for Tome of Battle. Is there any? Is this maneuver really as good as it seems? Thanks. Sorry if this question has been asked before.I'm not aware of any errata for the ToB yet. Keep an eye on the errata page.

The comparison seems strange to me as well, but there may well be a couple of side advantages for the greater form - such as the bonus to attack rolls - that you are overlooking.
kuonji
11-22-07, 07:23 AM Does the higer one let you take con damage as part of the attack? Because I can see the usefulness of dropping 10 Con to do a 26d8 attack.
Merestil Haye
11-22-07, 10:39 AM Does the higer one let you take con damage as part of the attack? Because I can see the usefulness of dropping 10 Con to do a 26d8 attack.Yes it does.

The 4th level maneuver just gives you a straight 8d8 damage. The 8th level maneuver gives you 6d8 damage, and for each point of Con damage you take gives +1 on attack rolls and +2d8 damage.

But there are several inconsistencies between the two maneuvers that I don't like. In particular, it takes longer to initiate Greater DS than DS, and Greater DS leaves you flat-footed afterwards when DS does not. I really think there's been a mixup somewhere in the drafting and editing.
kuonji
11-22-07, 10:58 AM Sounds to me like the lower level one just needs some kind of drawback, such as the flat footed penalty you mention on the greater one. As is, the greater one is much better for a final strike on a bad guy, or for one-shotting some poor caster and the lower one is just for hitting for some extra damage.

Out of curiousity, what's the difference in time taken to use them? Standard action vs. Full round or some such?
Merestil Haye
11-22-07, 12:55 PM Sounds to me like the lower level one just needs some kind of drawback, such as the flat footed penalty you mention on the greater one. As is, the greater one is much better for a final strike on a bad guy, or for one-shotting some poor caster and the lower one is just for hitting for some extra damage.Personally I think the flat-footed drawback should be attached to the one which takes less actions to activate, while taking the longer time should remove the penalty of being flat-footed.

Out of curiousity, what's the difference in time taken to use them? Standard action vs. Full round or some such?I'm not sure how much we're allowed to reveal since ToB is not Open Content, and the WizOs can be strict about copyright infringement. Hence I chose not to reveal the exact initiation times to avoid straying over the line while still being able to discuss the problems when the two powers are compared. Sorry.
Radijs
11-22-07, 06:06 PM The lesser is a standard action, the other's a full-round. I think we're allowed to tell that much.

As for the rest, I really can't say. I haven't played a crusader at that level before so I really can't comment. If there's a way to prevent or reduce the con damage then you can really whale on with that maneuver. Drop a load in power attack and go to town.
pmurray@bigpond.com
11-22-07, 11:35 PM I'm not sure how much we're allowed to reveal since ToB is not Open Content, and the WizOs can be strict about copyright infringement. Hence I chose not to reveal the exact initiation times to avoid straying over the line.

Isn't initiation action on those ToB maneuver card PDFs that wotc provide for free download?
Suspect_Unusual
11-23-07, 01:09 AM Seems reasonable to link everyone to said cards, then.

ToB maneuver cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a).
Merestil Haye
11-23-07, 07:18 AM Isn't initiation action on those ToB maneuver card PDFs that wotc provide for free download?If it is, then the information is publically available and there can be no real objection to sharing the info.

Having never read the cards (not having played or DMd using the book) I haven't actually checked the cards out. So I was erring on the side of caution.
Suspect_Unusual
11-23-07, 10:57 AM It is on the cards.

I'm of the camp that believes the 4th level Divine Surge should at least have the same "Is counted as flatfooted for the rest of the round" as the Greater Version, given that 8d8 is more extra damage than any other 4th level maneuver by a substantial margin.
likes2smash
11-23-07, 06:21 PM Thanks to everyone so far for the input. It's good to know I'm not the only one who found this strange.
pmurray@bigpond.com
11-24-07, 02:56 AM Having never read the cards (not having played or DMd using the book) I haven't actually checked the cards out.

The cards are great - thanks wotc. I printed the pages for my maneuvers onto glossy photograph card, and covered them with stick-on vinyl. Unexpended maneuvers are face up, expended maneuvers face down. It's that simple. I do not play a crusader, but managing the "you get one of your maneuvers at random" rule becomes easy - shuffle the cards.
Neutronium_Dragon
11-24-07, 04:57 AM To be honest, I think that Divine Surge is fine as written, and I'm saying this as a DM who has a crusader player in one of my games who uses it.

It's a fair chunk of damage, but when you look at what the other 4th level maneuvers are capable of, it's not too strong - it does more raw damage than any of the other damaging ones, yes - but the others generally provide a substantial benefit of some other type, often potentially more powerful than the bit of extra damage would be.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
likes2smash 11-21-07, 02:29 PM	One of my players has been playing a crusader(lvl 8) in a premade adventure I started recently. Now It seems fine for the most part but the one maneuver which seems insane to me is Divine surge. I don't have the text in front of me but it basically allows the character to add 8d8 dmg to an attack once per encounter. The odd thing is that there is a higher lvl version (greater divine surge or something) which allows you to do 6d8 +2d8 for each point of con dmg you suffer. So in order to get the higher lvl ability on par with the initial one you need take a point of con dmg. Also in the fluff text for divine surge it says something to the effect that you channel divine power and it "leaves you drained" but there does not appear to be any side effect listed in the actual ability. I couldn't find any errata for Tome of Battle. Is there any? Is this maneuver really as good as it seems? Thanks. Sorry if this question has been asked before.
Merestil Haye 11-21-07, 03:18 PM	One of my players has been playing a crusader(lvl 8) in a premade adventure I started recently. Now It seems fine for the most part but the one maneuver which seems insane to me is Divine surge. I don't have the text in front of me but it basically allows the character to add 8d8 dmg to an attack once per encounter. The odd thing is that there is a higher lvl version (greater divine surge or something) which allows you to do 6d8 +2d8 for each point of con dmg you suffer. So in order to get the higher lvl ability on par with the initial one you need take a point of con dmg. Also in the fluff text for divine surge it says something to the effect that you channel divine power and it "leaves you drained" but there does not appear to be any side effect listed in the actual ability. I couldn't find any errata for Tome of Battle. Is there any? Is this maneuver really as good as it seems? Thanks. Sorry if this question has been asked before.I'm not aware of any errata for the ToB yet. Keep an eye on the errata page. The comparison seems strange to me as well, but there may well be a couple of side advantages for the greater form - such as the bonus to attack rolls - that you are overlooking.
kuonji 11-22-07, 07:23 AM	Does the higer one let you take con damage as part of the attack? Because I can see the usefulness of dropping 10 Con to do a 26d8 attack.
Merestil Haye 11-22-07, 10:39 AM	Does the higer one let you take con damage as part of the attack? Because I can see the usefulness of dropping 10 Con to do a 26d8 attack.Yes it does. The 4th level maneuver just gives you a straight 8d8 damage. The 8th level maneuver gives you 6d8 damage, and for each point of Con damage you take gives +1 on attack rolls and +2d8 damage. But there are several inconsistencies between the two maneuvers that I don't like. In particular, it takes longer to initiate Greater DS than DS, and Greater DS leaves you flat-footed afterwards when DS does not. I really think there's been a mixup somewhere in the drafting and editing.
kuonji 11-22-07, 10:58 AM	Sounds to me like the lower level one just needs some kind of drawback, such as the flat footed penalty you mention on the greater one. As is, the greater one is much better for a final strike on a bad guy, or for one-shotting some poor caster and the lower one is just for hitting for some extra damage. Out of curiousity, what's the difference in time taken to use them? Standard action vs. Full round or some such?
Merestil Haye 11-22-07, 12:55 PM	Sounds to me like the lower level one just needs some kind of drawback, such as the flat footed penalty you mention on the greater one. As is, the greater one is much better for a final strike on a bad guy, or for one-shotting some poor caster and the lower one is just for hitting for some extra damage.Personally I think the flat-footed drawback should be attached to the one which takes less actions to activate, while taking the longer time should remove the penalty of being flat-footed. Out of curiousity, what's the difference in time taken to use them? Standard action vs. Full round or some such?I'm not sure how much we're allowed to reveal since ToB is not Open Content, and the WizOs can be strict about copyright infringement. Hence I chose not to reveal the exact initiation times to avoid straying over the line while still being able to discuss the problems when the two powers are compared. Sorry.
Radijs 11-22-07, 06:06 PM	The lesser is a standard action, the other's a full-round. I think we're allowed to tell that much. As for the rest, I really can't say. I haven't played a crusader at that level before so I really can't comment. If there's a way to prevent or reduce the con damage then you can really whale on with that maneuver. Drop a load in power attack and go to town.
pmurray@bigpond.com 11-22-07, 11:35 PM	I'm not sure how much we're allowed to reveal since ToB is not Open Content, and the WizOs can be strict about copyright infringement. Hence I chose not to reveal the exact initiation times to avoid straying over the line. Isn't initiation action on those ToB maneuver card PDFs that wotc provide for free download?
Suspect_Unusual 11-23-07, 01:09 AM	Seems reasonable to link everyone to said cards, then. ToB maneuver cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a).
Merestil Haye 11-23-07, 07:18 AM	Isn't initiation action on those ToB maneuver card PDFs that wotc provide for free download?If it is, then the information is publically available and there can be no real objection to sharing the info. Having never read the cards (not having played or DMd using the book) I haven't actually checked the cards out. So I was erring on the side of caution.
Suspect_Unusual 11-23-07, 10:57 AM	It is on the cards. I'm of the camp that believes the 4th level Divine Surge should at least have the same "Is counted as flatfooted for the rest of the round" as the Greater Version, given that 8d8 is more extra damage than any other 4th level maneuver by a substantial margin.
likes2smash 11-23-07, 06:21 PM	Thanks to everyone so far for the input. It's good to know I'm not the only one who found this strange.
pmurray@bigpond.com 11-24-07, 02:56 AM	Having never read the cards (not having played or DMd using the book) I haven't actually checked the cards out. The cards are great - thanks wotc. I printed the pages for my maneuvers onto glossy photograph card, and covered them with stick-on vinyl. Unexpended maneuvers are face up, expended maneuvers face down. It's that simple. I do not play a crusader, but managing the "you get one of your maneuvers at random" rule becomes easy - shuffle the cards.
Neutronium_Dragon 11-24-07, 04:57 AM	To be honest, I think that Divine Surge is fine as written, and I'm saying this as a DM who has a crusader player in one of my games who uses it. It's a fair chunk of damage, but when you look at what the other 4th level maneuvers are capable of, it's not too strong - it does more raw damage than any of the other damaging ones, yes - but the others generally provide a substantial benefit of some other type, often potentially more powerful than the bit of extra damage would be.