Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Panics 09-13-07, 03:15 PM	Am I the only one that believe the rules for business isn't working ? To my calculation there would never exist taverns in hamlet because it will never be profitable unless your a High level character who has put all is ranks in profession (innkeeper) !! You've got a -4 for rural... -4 for High risks... so you start at -8 on your profit check... how can we have an Expert level 3 run a tavern (which is most of the time what we see in books !) ??? Does I miss understood the rules ?
mvincent 09-13-07, 05:22 PM	What DC's are involved? A level 3 expert would have 6 ranks in the applicable professional skill. Together with taking 10, at least one assistance (+2 from aid another), and decent materials (+2 circumstance bonus: masterwork tools), he should be able to consistantly hit DC20.
Ace_of_time 09-14-07, 08:12 AM	5ranks +1 guild +1 spends 40 hours a week +2 Business savvy feat +2 business partner +2 3 specialist with pri skill +6 3 specialist with 2nd skill +3 your minus 8 gives you a total +9 to the check Now add in pri skill say 6 ranks plus 2/3 wis modifer and that gives you a total modifier of +17/+18. Taking a 10 would give him 27 - 25= 2 times risk is 100gp/ 28-25times 50= 150. Thats profit. and that just in rural towns. Minus 50 for specialist. Note: there are no DCs. And that doesn't include that some time he could upgrade once every three months min. costing 1,000gp and gain 1d4 to the profit check permanently
Some_call_me_Tim 09-14-07, 01:57 PM	Don't forget even experts get feats--skill focus(profession(inkeeper)).
Ace_of_time 09-14-07, 02:26 PM	I forgot 3rd level feat. That 150 gp more.
Panics 09-17-07, 03:20 PM	OK.. but I think you made an error in your calculation... because 6 specialist would cost 360 gp. 1st@10 gp + 2nd@30gp + 3rd@50gp + 4th@70gp + 5th@90gp + 6th@110 gp. DMGII don't mention that second hand specialist cost nothing or less than primary. And have not seen any errata about a lower cost, but it would be a good way to balance somehow. Next, that may be fine for a tavernist but what of the farmer... you lose all benefit of specialist since they give you at max +10 gp and cost you 10 gp min. So what's wrong ??? Farmer Expert 3 Profession (Farmer) 6 ranks Handle Animal & Knowledge (nature) 5 ranks Primary +6 secondary +1 Wisdom +0 (its a farmer after all :P) Town Farmer Guild Member: +1 Work more than 40hrs: +2 Is wife take care of the cow: +2 Low-risk +4 Rural -4 Gives: 12 + 10 = 22 - 25 = -3 * 5gp = -15 gp So a simple farmer should be a Farmer 6 before making profit ? What I found even strange is that by using Profession (Farmer) with the PHB rules the same farmer would do +6+10 = 16 /2 = 8 gp per week x 4 weeks/month = 32 gp/month. So why bother to have a business ?
Some_call_me_Tim 09-17-07, 03:39 PM	So what's wrong ??? Assuming that the rules really work for all cases? They work about as well as the gold piece limits in the DMG work--37,500,000 chickens in a town of 5000?! Why does everyone forget skill focus(whatever), that's +3 right there. What about circumstance bonuses? So a simple farmer should be a Farmer 6 before making profit ?It would sure explain why poor dirt farmers are so poor.
Heros_Backpack 09-17-07, 05:24 PM	Farmer Expert 3 Profession (Farmer) 6 ranks Handle Animal & Knowledge (nature) 5 ranks Primary +6 secondary +1 Wisdom +0 (its a farmer after all :P) Town Farmer Guild Member: +1 Work more than 40hrs: +2 Is wife take care of the cow: +2 Low-risk +4 Rural -4 Gives: 12 + 10 = 22 - 25 = -3 * 5gp = -15 gp So a simple farmer should be a Farmer 6 before making profit ? No, all he needs is two children helping out (aid another) as well as the wife. That gives him a profit of 5gp a check.
Zavia 09-18-07, 12:18 PM	the wife is aready milking the cow. And what if hes newly married? Or the kids are still young. Somewhere someone wrote an article on how they atcually can afford a living. redgar's sub-forum i belive.
Panics 09-18-07, 12:57 PM	Not to forget that the farmer would have to pay 3.000 gp (2 000 gp + 1000 gp) to get a farm... so a loan at 10% and he falls into big depts ! Poor farmer life... I think he will go fishing in the river instead ! :P
Heros_Backpack 09-18-07, 01:21 PM	Somewhere someone wrote an article on how they atcually can afford a living. redgar's sub-forum i belive. If you mean D&D Commoners make plenty of money (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=719384), I'd have to point out that yes, they do earn their living, but the figures are based on the Profession skill rather than the Business rules.
lint trap 09-18-07, 09:05 PM	Not to forget that the farmer would have to pay 3.000 gp (2 000 gp + 1000 gp) to get a farm... so a loan at 10% and he falls into big depts ! Poor farmer life... Hence the feudal system. Farmers don't own land, the local Baron does, and keeps a good portion of the farmer's profits in exchange for the privilege of working the land from dawn to dusk.
strange_person 09-19-07, 09:28 PM	According to the DMG, the Baron takes 20%, at most.
Ace_of_time 09-20-07, 09:04 PM	OK.. but I think you made an error in your calculation... because 6 specialist would cost 360 gp. 1st@10 gp + 2nd@30gp + 3rd@50gp + 4th@70gp + 5th@90gp + 6th@110 gp. DMGII don't mention that second hand specialist cost nothing or less than primary. And have not seen any errata about a lower cost, but it would be a good way to balance somehow. Next, that may be fine for a tavernist but what of the farmer... you lose all benefit of specialist since they give you at max +10 gp and cost you 10 gp min. So what's wrong ??? Farmer Expert 3 Profession (Farmer) 6 ranks Handle Animal & Knowledge (nature) 5 ranks Primary +6 secondary +1 Wisdom +0 (its a farmer after all :P) Town Farmer Guild Member: +1 Work more than 40hrs: +2 Is wife take care of the cow: +2 Low-risk +4 Rural -4 Gives: 12 + 10 = 22 - 25 = -3 * 5gp = -15 gp So a simple farmer should be a Farmer 6 before making profit ? What I found even strange is that by using Profession (Farmer) with the PHB rules the same farmer would do +6+10 = 16 /2 = 8 gp per week x 4 weeks/month = 32 gp/month. So why bother to have a business ? If you get rid of the three sub skills ones and take skill focus that should make up the differenceand the cost will be 90. Yours is off a little. Low risk is +1 and low resources is+1 plus business partner+2, business savy feat+2, and skill focus feat+3 would give you a +17+10 (taking 10)-25=2 * 5=10. After gain XP and enough money he could spend 500gp to gain 1d4 to profit check. Now in the PHB check doesn't take into account for bills. That farm would really get 27 * 5=135 gp and pays 125 on bills and keeps 10gp profit. The PHB would give 32 gp but how much would you pay out from that. 32-125= -93gp.
Ace_of_time 09-20-07, 09:13 PM	Not to forget that the farmer would have to pay 3.000 gp (2 000 gp + 1000 gp) to get a farm... so a loan at 10% and he falls into big depts ! Poor farmer life... I think he will go fishing in the river instead ! :PThis is covered by the check. The result is profit after bills. Capital is pay out in full the resources could be a loan. Most get there farms from fathers or work for some one which woukld also be included in the check.
Ace_of_time 09-21-07, 09:57 PM	What about shiping on ships and caravans? They don't really fit on any on that list in the DMGII. What do you think those would be? Any other businesses not on there that anybody could think of?
strange_person 09-21-07, 10:45 PM	Shipping could be run as a shop, but in a wagon or boat instead of a house.
lint trap 09-22-07, 12:29 PM	What about shiping on ships and caravans? They don't really fit on any on that list in the DMGII. What do you think those would be? Any other businesses not on there that anybody could think of? The shipping business was added as a business type in Power of Faerun, pg. 67. Capitol, resources, and risk are all high; Profession (merchant) is the primary skill, and Diplomacy/Knowledge (geography) are the secondaries.
Ace_of_time 09-22-07, 07:53 PM	Cool. Me and my wife are playing a business Campaign. The main point is to build a business. She wants a fighting school. The rules says she needs a build worth 100,000gp. Does anyone know of a Adven or just a map of a building like that? The level doesn't matter. Thinking a temple or monastery or something and have the owner let her / us clear it out and he would let her use it rent free for a year. Also do you think that would lower the minus 25?
Ace_of_time 09-23-07, 07:16 PM	I found thanks anyway. The map from manifesting a tale. Still have to come up with an adven.
strange_person 09-23-07, 09:04 PM	If you've got Sharn: City of Towers, it's got a pretty good map of the ground floor of Morgrave University. Just use the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook to add some more floors.
Ace_of_time 09-23-07, 11:47 PM	When I use it it ends up being two weeks long build and the building ends up being 16 levels tall and four levels deep owned by a 20th level wizards. It's easier to use a map already built. I love that book. Use it all the time. Just not for dungeons. This one will work. Took me two hours just to decide on what is in it. Using dark talon lizard raising howler wasp nest. after a year or so I'll put a Demonhive under ground that broke open after some shakes.
lulzapalooza 09-26-07, 05:24 PM	Considering how dangerous traveling is it only makes sense to have alot of inns along roads. Even roads not often traveled, because, hell, a bed stays made whether or not anybody's in it or not. Taverns can make money because they have loyal local interests.
Ace_of_time 09-26-07, 08:01 PM	I'm doing tavern and she is my wife (In Game and out) so I'm going to be her Business partner.
Manic Man 12-26-07, 02:37 AM	You've got a -4 for rural... -4 for High risks... so you start at -8 on your profit check... how can we have an Expert level 3 run a tavern (which is most of the time what we see in books !) ??? Does I miss understood the rules ? 3rd level tavern owner Specialist 5 = +10 Specialists costs = -5 Business partner = +2 Profession (Take 10) = +16 Wis bonus = +2 40 hours = +2 Skill Focus = +3 Masterwork tools = +2 5 ranks secondary: +1 Human: Negotiator/Business Savvy = +2 Profit check =-25 Non Humans = +8*50=400/month Humans = +10*50= 500/month Note that i did not use the guild bonus as joining a mercantile guild is not worth it, as it takes 15% of your profits for a +1 in addition to paying dues. If you can be a non-expert, if psionics exist, if sandstorm/frostburn/ECS is in play, if you qualify for a few prcs, the profit is much higher. Additionally if your DM allows for things like psicrystal personality to Profession, Item familiar, Apprentice feat to Profession, etc, it can go pretty high
Commx 12-27-07, 09:02 AM	3rd level tavern owner Specialist 5 = +10 Specialists costs = -5 Business partner = +2 Profession (Take 10) = +16 Wis bonus = +2 40 hours = +2 Skill Focus = +3 Masterwork tools = +2 5 ranks secondary: +1 Human: Negotiator/Business Savvy = +2 Profit check =-25 Non Humans = +8*50=400/month Humans = +10*50= 500/month You didn't take into account the Rural area mentioned in the OP, as well as the -4 penalty for High Risk. This changes the +8 and +10 into +0 and +2 respectively, meaning non-humans don't make any profit, and humans get 100 Gp/month. This means it takes a Human 90 months to pay for all of the initial costs of the business. Unfortunately, due to the listed random events, the business will statistically be destroyed once every 10 months, leaving the poor tavern owner 8000 Gp poorer than he was when he started his business.
Manic Man 12-27-07, 12:38 PM	You didn't take into account the Rural area mentioned in the OP, as well as the -4 penalty for High Risk. This changes the +8 and +10 into +0 and +2 respectively, meaning non-humans don't make any profit, and humans get 100 Gp/month. This means it takes a Human 90 months to pay for all of the initial costs of the business. Unfortunately, due to the listed random events, the business will statistically be destroyed once every 10 months, leaving the poor tavern owner 8000 Gp poorer than he was when he started his business. Of the business events there's only 1 actual business destruction event, fire, which can be prevented if the owner is on hand (and not in some dungeon). The other business events are actually more geared towards making you pay or fight. An NPC relies on adventurers (eg PCs) for fighting, so that removes a chunk of the business events an NPC has to personally deal with. A rural tavern costs 9000 gp, so following the rules, only a 8th level NPC has that amount of money. This can lead to 2 assumptions. The business has a silent partner (and rich) that ponies up the money or an inheritance of some sort. Either solves the business events that cost money since both have unknown quantities of cash available. If enough is scaped per 3 months (1000 gp for a rural tavern), the +1d4 profit check can really add up. So if the business survives a year and upgrades every 3 months, it should have no problem continuing even for non humans. This is all from an NPC point of view. PCs have it easier