Post/Author/DateTime	Post
partyduk 07-30-07, 07:37 PM	This may be a petty argument, but I could really use some third party opinions on the issue. Because we have such a small group that plays D&D, a friend and I work on developing character concepts. We have a "sandbox" approach when it comes to our characters: we carry the characters over into different campaigns (with respect to level requirements of course.) My friend's character as of now is a Neanderthal barbarian. He's been looking at the Wyrmbane Helm (A legacy item from the book Dragon Magic, pg. 104). The problem that I have is that he wants to DM an adventure that sends the party out to destroy this item. Partway through the adventure, he will introduce his barbarian as a "guide", without whom the party cannot achieve their goal. When they reach the helm, he will prevent the PC's from destroying it and take it for himself, slaughtering the party if necessary. My friend claims that thats how villains work. I'm not arguing that, of course thats how villains work. I'm arguing that its wrong for a DM to host a campaign for the strict purpose of advancing his character. I offered to host an adventure that his character would undertake on his own, and would eventually gain him the Wyrmbane Helm. He refused, saying that he wants to do it this way. The way I see it, there are three possible outcomes: 1) The party kills the barbarian, my friend claims he was resurrected, and he loses nothing. 2) He kills the party, takes the helm, and its game over. 3) He takes the helm and runs, leaving the adventure unfinished and the adventurers twiddling their thumbs. I know this because I'm positive he has no intention to continue the adventure. As far as I can tell, he's just looking for a free item. Comments?
mvincent 07-30-07, 08:31 PM	Comments?It seems like this questions should be under "What's a DM to Do?" rather than "DM Rules Counseling" (as this does not appear to be a rules question).
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-30-07, 09:28 PM	This looks like a job for Rule -1: Rule 0 doesn't mean squat when the DM frustrates the players enough with it that they no longer agree to go along with his idiotic rules. Consult the other players. You probably won't be the only one that has a problem with this crap. If it's enough of a problem for you all, simply walk (or rather exclude him from DMing since you all take turns, and can apparently have a working group with or without him).
mvincent 07-30-07, 09:48 PM	1) The party kills the barbarian, my friend claims he was resurrected, and he loses nothing.How would he explain the level loss associated with being resurrected? Or what about his expensive gear (which the party would undoubtedly keep for themselves)? I mean, if he can acquire gear as an NPC, then he can certainly lose it. And if the party is feeling particularly mean, they can sell his gear and use the money to reincarnate him mulitple times (i.e. killing him each time), so that he loses multiple levels. ;) Also note that any future DM's do not have to allow the Magic item (or even the barbarian) into their games anyway.
pres_man 07-31-07, 12:19 AM	Sounds like your friend needs some: http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q261/pres_man/shoothammer.gif
Talisman 07-31-07, 12:43 AM	He's an idiot. Here's what I would do: Run the adventure. Make it a bit tougher than he expected, but nothing he can't survive. Make sure to flesh out the world and leave some nifty magical swag specifically for the other PCs. When they reach the Wyrmbane Helm, let things happen. If the party kills him, problem solved; he can come back nexty campaign one level lower and without any of his gear. Be ruthless about that last part. If a single barbarian slays the rest of the party...well, I'd be very surprised. But it could happen. At which point you reveal that the Wyrmbane helm is actually a fake, a cursed item placed here by the powers that want it preserved and not destroyed. Where's th real Helm? Who knows? If he grabs the helm and runs off, see above. In addition, the rest of the party (by which I mean, the real adventuring party) has a new quest. It's called: Kill The Traitor! This should be amusing. Or, if you don't want to waste all that time crushing an immature munchkin's dreams, show this thread to the rest of your group and let them beat him senseless.
pres_man 07-31-07, 01:23 PM	I think you misunderstood, the guy wants to RUN the game himself so he can give his character (the barb) the helm, hence the DMPC bit.
Talisman 07-31-07, 01:57 PM	Oops. My bad for not reading your post thoroughly. My friend's character as of now is a Neanderthal barbarian. He's been looking at the Wyrmbane Helm (A legacy item from the book Dragon Magic, pg. 104). The problem that I have is that he wants to DM an adventure that sends the party out to destroy this item. Partway through the adventure, he will introduce his barbarian as a "guide", without whom the party cannot achieve their goal. When they reach the helm, he will prevent the PC's from destroying it and take it for himself, slaughtering the party if necessary. Sounds like CE munchkining to me. It would be one thing to run an adventure/mini campaign where his character happened to acquire this Helm in the course of legitimate adventuring. What your friend is suggesting (demainding?) is arbitrary GM railroading and bait-&-switch of the worst variety. My friend claims that thats how villains work. I'm not arguing that, of course thats how villains work. I'm arguing that its wrong for a DM to host a campaign for the strict purpose of advancing his character. I offered to host an adventure that his character would undertake on his own, and would eventually gain him the Wyrmbane Helm. He refused, saying that he wants to do it this way. Your counteroffer sounds reasonable to me. The fact that he wants to do it his way only demonstrates that, as you suspect, he's not interested in a legitimate, "fun for everyone" game, but in a free item and the other players be d*mned. That's one of the most immature things I've ever heard. Tell him no. If he whines, explain to the rest of the group what he wants to do, especially the "slaughtering the rest of the party" part. If he doesn't understand that RPGs are supposed to be fun for everyone, maybe he shouldn't be playing. I certainly wouldn't let him run any more.
mvincent 07-31-07, 02:29 PM	he's not interested in a legitimate, "fun for everyone" game, but in a free item and the other players be d*mned.Well, we don't know this. We've only heard one side. The player might well simply wish to run an adventure that he believes to be fun, and is using a character that he is most familiar with as the villian. He might have nice, dramatic story in his head (maybe involving the downfall of his character) that he wishes to share. This isn't that uncommon. I think the other DM's should explain to him that he can't use the item afterwards as a PC (because he didn't acquire it as a PC), but that the character can, if desired, remain (with the item) solely as an NPC. If he whines, then his motives are clear. If he is ok with this, then the OP has possibly misjudged his motives.
pres_man 07-31-07, 05:21 PM	Frankly all of this can be avoided by the group saying whenever you change campaigns, PCs all have to have the same: -level -available class and race choices -ability creation rules (same point buy or roll in front of everyone or other) -hitpoint calculation (average or roll in front everyone or other) -WEALTH LEVEL (including any restrictions, no more than 1/2 on one item for example) -other character issues If everyone is restricted to the same wealth rules, and players are allowed whatever freedom in that, then this whole idea of giving the character an item in one game to be used in another would be a non-issue. You will either be able to purchase it with your wealth avaible in the new game or it will be more than you can afford and thus will not be allowed to have it anyway. Going only by level restriction creates silly situations like the OP.
Jagyr Ebonwood 07-31-07, 06:21 PM	Well, we don't know this. We've only heard one side. The player might well simply wish to run an adventure that he believes to be fun, and is using a character that he is most familiar with as the villian. He might have nice, dramatic story in his head (maybe involving the downfall of his character) that he wishes to share. This isn't that uncommon. I think the other DM's should explain to him that he can't use the item afterwards as a PC (because he didn't acquire it as a PC), but that the character can, if desired, remain (with the item) solely as an NPC. If he whines, then his motives are clear. If he is ok with this, then the OP has possibly misjudged his motives. I agree, but the fact that he wants to carry over the helm into a separate campaign bothers me. I don't know Legacy Items, but I'm guessing they can't be bought? Items that can't be bought have to be earned. It's perfectly fine for him to say "I want this priceless item", and it's wonderful that you offered to let him obtain it through a quest. The fact that he only wants to get it in a situation where he is the DM (and therefore his character is effectively immune to everything) rather than in the normal fashion (which includes risk) makes it seem as though he wants to get something for nothing. That's not cool. Just tell him that you won't accept such changes to be made to your campaign against your will. Offer to have the same adventure in your campaign. I.E., he hears about a group of adventurers searching for the helm, and he decides to join them as a guide and snatch it out from under their noses. Let him be the PC and have the other characters be NPCs. (Obviously, each adventure could have different outcomes in each campaign. They're not meant to be the same exact situation, just very similar setups.) This way, the plot is the same, so he should be happy, and you get to retain your DM authority. (If he isn't happy with this proposal, you know he's up to something.)
Nom 08-01-07, 04:11 AM	Rule #1: villains are supposed to lose, eventually. Assuming this guy successfully tricks the party and runs off with the helm (not a bad plot hook), the expectation is that the PCs now hunt him down to get it back. Building hate is good. Building hate with no intention of letting the PCs get payback is an effective way to alienate your players.
lildeathfrog 08-01-07, 02:43 PM	After letting people respond and my fellow friend partyduk saying his words I will defend myself now see ok I found this item and I thought of this adventure. Yes I want to put my character into the game so he has a chance to take it for himself but I never said that I would not give the PCs a chance to fight back and kill me that I have no problems with. I also never said that the party could continue without him I simple said they would run into him b/c he would have Knowledge of it and that he would offer his help to find it and at the end try to stop the destruction of it. And along these lines I am not DMing this with the strict purpose of advancing my own character. Also if I end up making this I will be far about it and using my character as an NPC as I DM and if in the end if the character ends up stealing it and running off I don’t plan on just leaving the adventure die just there I plan on letting the characters hunt me down and use it as a story line catcher for more ideas to come.
Manic Man 08-01-07, 02:54 PM	And along these lines I am not DMing this with the strict purpose of advancing my own character. Also if I end up making this I will be far about it and using my character as an NPC as I DM and if in the end if the character ends up stealing it and running off I don’t plan on just leaving the adventure die just there I plan on letting the characters hunt me down and use it as a story line catcher for more ideas to come. So a few things. If you die, your character is destroyed across all campaigns? That is only fair or you have nothing to lose. If you gain the item, do you get to carry it to your other campaigns? If so why not give yourself all the artifacts in the book and be done with it? Also i notice that you mentioned "strict purpose", you seem to mean that you wish for your character's advancement to be *part* of the reason of your plot?
Dag 08-02-07, 01:54 PM	When the guy gets you all at the table to start the module starring his character and to benefit his character simply inform him that you have already successfully destroyed the Wyrmbane helm. "Yea, last night Mitch and I ran ourselves through the adventure and destroyed the thing. There was this big sasquatch barbarian howling and running after us but we tossed him off a cliff. I wasn't sure but he had the look of one of those wandering, cheese covered DM PCs I've heard about. Oh well, all's well that ends well." I mean really, if the guy can bend reality and make a mockery of the DMing process to favor his character then certainly the others who take turns DMing in this group can do the same to foil his silliness. Your best bet is to ask him to come back to your group when he grows up - after you've stopped laughing at his idea of course.
Toki_Wartooth 08-02-07, 03:13 PM	Your best bet is to ask him to come back to your group when he grows upYour reply itself didn't exactly smack of maturity... especially since the DM in question has already posted here saying that wasn't his intent, and that his character would remain as an NPC if he somehow retains the helm. I'm guessing that a lot of people in this thread could do a bit of growing up, including the OP (who didn't even post his vindictive topic in the correct forum), and myself (for this very post ; ).
Dag 08-03-07, 03:05 AM	Toki, I wasn't trying to "smack of maturity" I was trying to respond to this dilemma with the seriousness it deserves, meaning none. Immature? Sure, but if you scrutanize enough then we're all immature for playing D&D. I said that he needs to grow up, stop twisting his power as a DM to benefit his character. This guy's crossing the line between being immature and cheating in the game to help himself; and as for him addressing the issue with his own post - I know. I read it and I don't buy it for a second. He's packaging it as if he's doing this for the group's benefit, but give me a break. I guess you were the only one mature enough to believe that nonsense.
danielinthewolvesden 08-03-07, 03:18 AM	Simple. Invite EVERYONE here to discuss this, see if they still want this guy to DM. Or sit everyone down and discuss it. Spill all the beans. If they can be trusted to not walk out in a group and never talk to this guy again, they can be trusted not to Metagame it, right?:evillaugh
Phrennzy 08-03-07, 12:04 PM	Offer to have the same adventure in your campaign. I.E., he hears about a group of adventurers searching for the helm, and he decides to join them as a guide and snatch it out from under their noses. Let him be the PC and have the other characters be NPCs. That is by far the best idea. Yes I want to put my character into the game so he has a chance to take it for himself but I never said that I would not give the PCs a chance to fight back and kill me that I have no problems with. The problem everyone has is that you are running a game, as the DM, the final word, the arbitrator, yet the 'villain' is the PC you play in other games. Do you not see the conflict of interest here? It is impossible - IMPOSSIBLE - for you to be unbiased in a fight between you and the rest of the party. This is not your fault - no one in that same scenario (playing a beloved character) could remain unbiased. if in the end if the character ends up stealing it and running off I don’t plan on just leaving the adventure die just there I plan on letting the characters hunt me down and use it as a story line catcher for more ideas to come. So you are basically starting a PVP game. Your PC is stealing from the rest of the group. They are then going to try and kill you. If they fail, they are dead. If they succeed, you are dead. If they kill you - do they get your stuff? If they leave your lifeless corpse on a lonely mountain top, how will you be resurrected without some cheesy Deus Ex Machina? What if they throw you and the helm together into the magma (or however they have to destroy it)? You are asking your friends to play in a game of you versus them. That is the WORST type of mentality for a DM to have.
Toki_Wartooth 08-03-07, 12:18 PM	Immature? SureWell, the irony of your post had not seemed intentional (so it seemed appropriate to note it, is all). as for him addressing the issue with his own post - I know. I read it and I don't buy it for a second.It doesn't much matter if he was sincere or not. The fact they he stated (in a public forum) that the character will remain as an NPC if he retains the helm pretty much solves the problem (in a mature, friendly way). He will never be able to use the helm as a PC unless another DM gives it to him.
Dark_Rhapsody 08-03-07, 12:28 PM	NO! I would never consider allowing him to do that. If he is going to use his character in a campaign he is DMing, then he should have the character's changes be independant of the other campaigns he plays in (so, no, he cannot keep the helm in other games). Also, he is basically using his players for his own purposes, so it is just wrong. If you can't stop him however, just tell his players of his plans or have his precious character swallowed by a dragon. Kill him off. He deserves it, which isn't usually the case, but I will say that in this case, go right ahead. He is warping the game anyways, so just say, "well, if you are going to warp the game, then I am too," then have his character just explode or something. Doesn't make sense, but his plan doesn't make sense either. If he complains go, "well, did I mention that your character will forever be tortured forever as a mindless lesser demon for the murder and theft you commited and that you will later become Baezelbub's love slave." I think the last part will make him throw up, but it is okay, because he would deserve a swift kick in the crotch too.
Toki_Wartooth 08-03-07, 12:37 PM	the 'villain' is the PC you play in other games. Do you not see the conflict of interest here? It is impossible - IMPOSSIBLE - for you to be unbiased in a fight between you and the rest of the party.To be fair, I have seen this done in other games by experienced DM's. Turning PC's into villains is not that uncommon. I think it's certainly possible to be unbiased about it. Indeed, a DM may well have less attachment to a DMPC that he was possibly planning to retire anyway, than to a carefully crafted villain that he possibly wishes to be recurring. Besides, a DM of any experience recognizes that villians are supposed to lose anyways. If he is thinking otherwise for his PC, then yes, there is a problem (but it's not inherent to the situation). Myself, I think the fact that he wishes his PC to adventure with the party (while he's DM'ing) is not a good thing.
pres_man 08-03-07, 08:56 PM	One of the biggest problems I see is that most good gamers purposefully avoid trying to kill party members. Players of PCs that do attack other party members are often immature, so in this set up the wanna-be DM basically wants to set up a game where to succeed the players have to act immature. That is fine, but that should be made clear at the beginning, that this is going to be a game of everyone for themselves, thus the NPC betrayal will not be unexpected. Of course if the party decides to just attack and kill the NPC at the first moment they meet him, that should not be unexpected either. But they need him right? Nope, speak with dead does wonders. ;)
Manic Man 08-04-07, 01:12 AM	The fact they he stated (in a public forum) that the character will remain as an NPC if he retains the helm pretty much solves the problem (in a mature, friendly way). He will never be able to use the helm as a PC unless another DM gives it to him. Huh did he state so? What i saw was that he said that his PC would be an NPC "when he DMs", so when the OP DMs, his PC is a PC implicitly. Since he already has the helm, i think i jmissed the part where he said he won't be using the helm unless another DM give it to him?
RollaD20 08-05-07, 11:16 PM	i suppose the only thing i cabn say on this is that the DMPC is a sick metagamer who doesnt deserve to play at all. and that the only pvp combat ive had is in barfights and combat regarding the party's rogue cheating the barbarian out of 1000gp in a fixed game of 3 dragon ante
Theogonist 08-08-07, 11:49 AM	IMO: DMPCs are bad style. Centering an adventure around an item especially for the DMPC is egocentric. But thanks for bringing this up, I remeber now why we never ever even thought about playing our own PCs while DMing :rolleyes: