Do grappled foes get a Reflex save? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Do grappled foes get a Reflex save? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
thom99
05-22-07, 03:40 PM OK, so my PCs got into a fight with stirges, and the Ranger with 10 Con ended up grappled by 3 stirges! :bigeyes: The wizard, seeing 3d4 of Con damage coming up, decided to cast Burning Hands on the ranger...and the fun begin.

First off, with the stirges attached to him, the ranger chose to not make a Reflex save and gambled the damage wouldn't kill him. But...what about the stirges and their reflex save? The ranger tried to argue that since they were grappled to him they didn't get a reflex save, especially since he wasn't trying to make one. Nothing in the rules covers this--what would y'all have done??:confused:
Karui_Kage
05-22-07, 03:46 PM While I don't have the books in front of me, I'm almost certain that being involved in a grapple denies all participants their reflex save (your ability to move is limited, you lose your Dex bonus to AC, etc.)

I'm sure someone will quote the RAW to verify this.
mvincent
05-22-07, 06:26 PM Grappling does not affect your reflex saves. From the 3.5 FAQ:
"A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is
subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save
usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not
depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It
also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the
save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous
factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from
meeting an untimely fate.
In most cases, you make Reflex saves normally, no matter
how bad your circumstances are, but a few conditions interfere
with Reflex saves:
• If you’ve suffered Dexterity damage or Dexterity
drain, you must use your current, lower Dexterity
modifier for your Reflex saves.
• If you’re cowering, you lose your Dexterity bonus (if
any). The maximum Dexterity bonus you can have
while cowering is +0, and that affects your Reflex
saves accordingly.
• If you’re dead, you become an object. Unattended
objects can’t make saving throws.
• If you’re entangled, your effective Dexterity score
drops by –4, and you must use your lower Dexterity
modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re exhausted, your effective Strength and
Dexterity scores drop by –6, and you must use your
lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
If you’re fatigued, your effective Strength and
Dexterity scores drop by –2, and you must use your
lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re frightened or panicked, you have a –2
penalty on all saving throws, including Reflex saving
throws.
• If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively
0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your
Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever
you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep."
Karui_Kage
05-22-07, 06:36 PM So would being grappled be considered as being entangled? That'd make the most sense to me, it seems odd that there would be no penalty at all.

There may be something specifically regarding the stirge, too. I believe their entry in the MM says something to the effect of "loses Dex" or "Dex drops to 0" while they're 'attached' to an opponent. Might want to check that out too. :)
Inigo Carmine
05-22-07, 06:55 PM So would being grappled be considered as being entangled?
Nope.

I believe their entry in the MM says something to the effect of "loses Dex" or "Dex drops to 0" while they're 'attached' to an opponent. Might want to check that out too. :)

They lose their dex bonus (to AC) in a grapple. The only thing unusual here is that they appear to lose it even against the person they are grappling.
CrippleMrOnion
05-22-07, 07:10 PM Though I coudn't begin to source this, sleeping characters, helpless characters... hell... inanimate objects... all get reflex saves. It has been suggested that reflex saves come partly from luck; the flames from a fireball simply don't occupy the area where you stand.
mvincent
05-22-07, 07:43 PM I coudn't begin to source thisSee post #3
Salla
05-22-07, 07:58 PM Though I coudn't begin to source this, sleeping characters, helpless characters... hell... inanimate objects... all get reflex saves. It has been suggested that reflex saves come partly from luck; the flames from a fireball simply don't occupy the area where you stand.

Unattended objects don't get saving throws ... but past that, spot on. :)
weasel0
05-22-07, 08:03 PM Unattended non-magical objects.
thom99
05-22-07, 10:34 PM Thanks everyone! I actually gave the stirges a Reflex save, and the SRD states:

No Dexterity Bonus: You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)

So I gave them their base Reflex save without any dexterity modifiers--but I didn't figure them as having a zero dexterity. They all fried from the damage anyway, but it sure made the Ranger sweat!:eek:
Merestil Haye
05-23-07, 06:32 AM Thanks everyone! I actually gave the stirges a Reflex save, and the SRD states:

No Dexterity Bonus: You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)

So I gave them their base Reflex save without any dexterity modifiers--but I didn't figure them as having a zero dexterity. They all fried from the damage anyway, but it sure made the Ranger sweat!:eek:For future reference, this is an error.

Conditions that deny a creature their Dex bonus to AC only deny the Dex bonus to AC and not any other thing that Dex modifies. That includes reflex saves.

If something denies Reflex saves it will explicitly say so. The best example is the Snatch feat. This disallows a Reflex save by a creature held in the mouth of another creature with a breath weapon, but only against that breath weapon and not any other attacks that might require a Reflex save.
Phrennzy
05-23-07, 08:35 AM OK, so my PCs got into a fight with stirges, and the Ranger with 10 Con ended up grappled by 3 stirges! :bigeyes: The wizard, seeing 3d4 of Con damage coming up, decided to cast Burning Hands on the ranger...and the fun begin.

First off, with the stirges attached to him, the ranger chose to not make a Reflex save and gambled the damage wouldn't kill him. But...what about the stirges and their reflex save? The ranger tried to argue that since they were grappled to him they didn't get a reflex save, especially since he wasn't trying to make one. Nothing in the rules covers this--what would y'all have done??:confused:

Since the Ranger chose to not make a Reflex save, I would have thrown a -2 penalty on the stirges saving throw to reflect that he was trying to get them into the fire. But they still get a save.

This is a case of rewarding player choices.
It is not RAW.
It is correct for two reasons:
Because I am the DM.
Because it rewards the players' for trying.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thom99 05-22-07, 03:40 PM	OK, so my PCs got into a fight with stirges, and the Ranger with 10 Con ended up grappled by 3 stirges! :bigeyes: The wizard, seeing 3d4 of Con damage coming up, decided to cast Burning Hands on the ranger...and the fun begin. First off, with the stirges attached to him, the ranger chose to not make a Reflex save and gambled the damage wouldn't kill him. But...what about the stirges and their reflex save? The ranger tried to argue that since they were grappled to him they didn't get a reflex save, especially since he wasn't trying to make one. Nothing in the rules covers this--what would y'all have done??:confused:
Karui_Kage 05-22-07, 03:46 PM	While I don't have the books in front of me, I'm almost certain that being involved in a grapple denies all participants their reflex save (your ability to move is limited, you lose your Dex bonus to AC, etc.) I'm sure someone will quote the RAW to verify this.
mvincent 05-22-07, 06:26 PM	Grappling does not affect your reflex saves. From the 3.5 FAQ: "A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate. In most cases, you make Reflex saves normally, no matter how bad your circumstances are, but a few conditions interfere with Reflex saves: • If you’ve suffered Dexterity damage or Dexterity drain, you must use your current, lower Dexterity modifier for your Reflex saves. • If you’re cowering, you lose your Dexterity bonus (if any). The maximum Dexterity bonus you can have while cowering is +0, and that affects your Reflex saves accordingly. • If you’re dead, you become an object. Unattended objects can’t make saving throws. • If you’re entangled, your effective Dexterity score drops by –4, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves. • If you’re exhausted, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –6, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves. If you’re fatigued, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –2, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves. • If you’re frightened or panicked, you have a –2 penalty on all saving throws, including Reflex saving throws. • If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep."
Karui_Kage 05-22-07, 06:36 PM	So would being grappled be considered as being entangled? That'd make the most sense to me, it seems odd that there would be no penalty at all. There may be something specifically regarding the stirge, too. I believe their entry in the MM says something to the effect of "loses Dex" or "Dex drops to 0" while they're 'attached' to an opponent. Might want to check that out too. :)
Inigo Carmine 05-22-07, 06:55 PM	So would being grappled be considered as being entangled? Nope. I believe their entry in the MM says something to the effect of "loses Dex" or "Dex drops to 0" while they're 'attached' to an opponent. Might want to check that out too. :) They lose their dex bonus (to AC) in a grapple. The only thing unusual here is that they appear to lose it even against the person they are grappling.
CrippleMrOnion 05-22-07, 07:10 PM	Though I coudn't begin to source this, sleeping characters, helpless characters... hell... inanimate objects... all get reflex saves. It has been suggested that reflex saves come partly from luck; the flames from a fireball simply don't occupy the area where you stand.
mvincent 05-22-07, 07:43 PM	I coudn't begin to source thisSee post #3
Salla 05-22-07, 07:58 PM	Though I coudn't begin to source this, sleeping characters, helpless characters... hell... inanimate objects... all get reflex saves. It has been suggested that reflex saves come partly from luck; the flames from a fireball simply don't occupy the area where you stand. Unattended objects don't get saving throws ... but past that, spot on. :)
weasel0 05-22-07, 08:03 PM	Unattended non-magical objects.
thom99 05-22-07, 10:34 PM	Thanks everyone! I actually gave the stirges a Reflex save, and the SRD states: No Dexterity Bonus: You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.) So I gave them their base Reflex save without any dexterity modifiers--but I didn't figure them as having a zero dexterity. They all fried from the damage anyway, but it sure made the Ranger sweat!:eek:
Merestil Haye 05-23-07, 06:32 AM	Thanks everyone! I actually gave the stirges a Reflex save, and the SRD states: No Dexterity Bonus: You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.) So I gave them their base Reflex save without any dexterity modifiers--but I didn't figure them as having a zero dexterity. They all fried from the damage anyway, but it sure made the Ranger sweat!:eek:For future reference, this is an error. Conditions that deny a creature their Dex bonus to AC only deny the Dex bonus to AC and not any other thing that Dex modifies. That includes reflex saves. If something denies Reflex saves it will explicitly say so. The best example is the Snatch feat. This disallows a Reflex save by a creature held in the mouth of another creature with a breath weapon, but only against that breath weapon and not any other attacks that might require a Reflex save.
Phrennzy 05-23-07, 08:35 AM	OK, so my PCs got into a fight with stirges, and the Ranger with 10 Con ended up grappled by 3 stirges! :bigeyes: The wizard, seeing 3d4 of Con damage coming up, decided to cast Burning Hands on the ranger...and the fun begin. First off, with the stirges attached to him, the ranger chose to not make a Reflex save and gambled the damage wouldn't kill him. But...what about the stirges and their reflex save? The ranger tried to argue that since they were grappled to him they didn't get a reflex save, especially since he wasn't trying to make one. Nothing in the rules covers this--what would y'all have done??:confused: Since the Ranger chose to not make a Reflex save, I would have thrown a -2 penalty on the stirges saving throw to reflect that he was trying to get them into the fire. But they still get a save. This is a case of rewarding player choices. It is not RAW. It is correct for two reasons: Because I am the DM. Because it rewards the players' for trying.