Do ranged touch attacks provoke? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Do ranged touch attacks provoke? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Epicweaver
05-04-07, 09:38 AM Do ranged touch attacks provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents?
Murrdox
05-04-07, 09:58 AM For the purpose of provoking attacks of opportunity, there is no difference between a normal ranged attack or a ranged touch attack.

So yes.
BloodSpill
05-04-07, 10:09 AM No.

Ranged touch attacks are typically from spells being cast. Spells provoke their own AoOs.
tharivol266
05-04-07, 10:12 AM yes they do because some ranged touch effects arent caused by a spell being cast or spell like ability. some are from racial features or other extrodinary abilities.

if however they are part of spell or spell like ability then only one attack is provoked for the action NOT one for casting and one for attacking
alangriffith
05-04-07, 10:57 AM The reason for the varying answers is that this is not a well-worded question.

A ranged touch attack is something you roll against a touch AC, it has nothing to do with AoO's.

What provokes AoO are the actions listed under the rules. These include the things which cause most ranged touch attacks to be rolled. i.e. using a ranged weapon, casting a spell, using a spell-like ability.

These have various ways to get around provoking (concentration checks, quickened spells, special feats and class features, etc.), which are clearly listed in the main rules (concentration) or only matter if you have a certain class or monster or spell.

If you have a supernatural or Ex ability to cause a ranged touch attack (e.g. beholder's eye rays), you don't provoke an AoO, because ex and Su abilities do not provoke AoO (monster manual page 290). Note the ability must *cause* the attack, not supplement an existing bow or spell or whatever.
Epicweaver
05-04-07, 12:09 PM The reason for the varying answers is that this is not a well-worded question.

A ranged touch attack is something you roll against a touch AC, it has nothing to do with AoO's.

What provokes AoO are the actions listed under the rules. These include the things which cause most ranged touch attacks to be rolled. i.e. using a ranged weapon, casting a spell, using a spell-like ability.

These have various ways to get around provoking (concentration checks, quickened spells, special feats and class features, etc.), which are clearly listed in the main rules (concentration) or only matter if you have a certain class or monster or spell.

If you have a supernatural or Ex ability to cause a ranged touch attack (e.g. beholder's eye rays), you don't provoke an AoO, because ex and Su abilities do not provoke AoO (monster manual page 290). Note the ability must *cause* the attack, not supplement an existing bow or spell or whatever.Thanks Al (and rest), I didn't note the distinction between "ranged touch attack" and "ranged weapon, casting a spell, etc"... It's the action type not the attack roll that matters... Thanks =)

Question came up about firing a ray spell in melee combat last game and we weren't really certain about it... So aside from the standard AoO from casting (avoided through casting defensively), there wouldn't be a second AoO provoked from making a ranged touch attack while an opponent is adjacent... the defining line is the "ranged weapon" blerb. Thanks.
olshanski_home
05-04-07, 01:44 PM No.

Ranged touch attacks are typically from spells being cast. Spells provoke their own AoOs.

If you are in a threatened space and you attempt to cast "Acid Arrow", you provoke once for casting a spell and a second time for using a ranged attack.

If you were in a threatened space and you attempted to cast "Shocking Grasp", you only provoke once for casting the spell. A spell with a melee touch range does not provoke AoO.
Murrdox
05-04-07, 03:01 PM If you are in a threatened space and you attempt to cast "Acid Arrow", you provoke once for casting a spell and a second time for using a ranged attack.

If you were in a threatened space and you attempted to cast "Shocking Grasp", you only provoke once for casting the spell. A spell with a melee touch range does not provoke AoO.

Uhhh no.

You don't provoke TWO attacks of opportunity by casting a spell that involves a ranged touch attack.

The ranged touch attack is part of the somatic component of casting the spell. It is not a separate action in itself.

Things I can think of that would provoke attacks of opportunity using a ranged touch attack which are NOT spells or various monster abilities are mostly related to using devices.

Things like throwing a Tanglefoot bag, alchemist's fire, or some other item where you intend on hitting the person but do not necessarily have to breech the AC. These would all involve ranged touch attacks, and would provoke AoO against anyone standing next to you.
starfire311
05-04-07, 03:15 PM ok, here is how it works.

casting a spell provokes

Attacks of Opportunity
Generally, if you cast a spell, you provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies. If you take damage from an attack of opportunity, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + spell level) or lose the spell. Spells that require only a free action to cast don’t provoke attacks of opportunity.

Casting on the Defensive
Casting a spell while on the defensive does not provoke an attack of opportunity. It does, however, require a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to pull off. Failure means that you lose the spell.

attacking with a ranged weapon provokes

Ranged Attacks
With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is ten range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions

Ranged touch attacks do not provoke.

If you cast a spell, that creates a ranged weapon that you then use to attack a target. This could provoke 2 AoOs, I believe Ice Knife may do this.
olshanski_home
05-04-07, 03:36 PM A ranged touch attack is a subset of ranged attack.
The "touch" just describes what AC you are trying to hit. (you only need to "touch" the target, you don't need to penetrate the armor or shield).

Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature you’re aiming at.

However, the rules also say that "touch" spells do not provoke attacks of opportunity:
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

I suppose reading the above rules, it is easy to say that a ranged touch attack from a spell does not provoke an AoO. I am not totally happy with the wording used, but I'll submit that I was incorrect above.
Nom
05-05-07, 08:41 AM Actually, a better answer is that the middle paragraph of the touch attack rules breaks one of the cardinal rules of writing: it introduces a new idea in the middle of a paragraph. Some of the rules in the paragraph are nonsensical in the context of ranged touch (vs melee touch). Some are not.

Even the opening sentence is contradictory with respect to ranged touch (if it even applies): "Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity". The armed/unarmed distinction applies to melee attacks with manufactured or natural weapons vs unarmed strikes. "Armed attack" is not a category that applies to the "attack with a ranged weapon" rules, and is therefore inappropriate to apply to discussion of ranged touch attacks.

Similarly, the rules in paragraph one ("touch spells in combat") and paragraph three ("holding the charge") can only be coherently applied to melee touch attacks.

Summary: ranged touch should have had a separate rules subsection explaining how they behaved, rather than a passing comment on their existence in the middle of the melee touch attack rules.

Summary 2: all that you can prove about AoOs and ranged touch attacks from PH pg 141 is that the editors failed badly.

Comment: considering that "use a wand" doesn't provoke an AoO, I have no problem with allowing a ranged touch attack made as part of another action to not provoke its own AoO. But that is a matter of "game model reasoning", not explicit rules.
alangriffith
05-05-07, 06:13 PM "You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon" does not mean it *is* a ranged weapon, it means that you *aim* it *like* a ranged weapon.

Thats two reasons why it doesn't count as a ranged weapon for provoking:

1) It isn't a ranged weapon, it just has some similarities

2) The rule refers to how you aim, not whether you provoke. Aiming does not provoke.

Under 'weaponlike spells' in complete arcane it states that any spell which requires an attack roll to hit and deals damage functions like a ranged weapon in some respects, and then lists them. Provoking attacks of opportunity is not on the list.

You will also notice that the rules on ranged weapons (which provoke attacks of opportunity) are at the start of the equipment section, where all the weapons are listed. Spells are not listed on that table, or mentioned. Spells are not weapons, they are spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Epicweaver 05-04-07, 09:38 AM	Do ranged touch attacks provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents?
Murrdox 05-04-07, 09:58 AM	For the purpose of provoking attacks of opportunity, there is no difference between a normal ranged attack or a ranged touch attack. So yes.
BloodSpill 05-04-07, 10:09 AM	No. Ranged touch attacks are typically from spells being cast. Spells provoke their own AoOs.
tharivol266 05-04-07, 10:12 AM	yes they do because some ranged touch effects arent caused by a spell being cast or spell like ability. some are from racial features or other extrodinary abilities. if however they are part of spell or spell like ability then only one attack is provoked for the action NOT one for casting and one for attacking
alangriffith 05-04-07, 10:57 AM	The reason for the varying answers is that this is not a well-worded question. A ranged touch attack is something you roll against a touch AC, it has nothing to do with AoO's. What provokes AoO are the actions listed under the rules. These include the things which cause most ranged touch attacks to be rolled. i.e. using a ranged weapon, casting a spell, using a spell-like ability. These have various ways to get around provoking (concentration checks, quickened spells, special feats and class features, etc.), which are clearly listed in the main rules (concentration) or only matter if you have a certain class or monster or spell. If you have a supernatural or Ex ability to cause a ranged touch attack (e.g. beholder's eye rays), you don't provoke an AoO, because ex and Su abilities do not provoke AoO (monster manual page 290). Note the ability must cause the attack, not supplement an existing bow or spell or whatever.
Epicweaver 05-04-07, 12:09 PM	The reason for the varying answers is that this is not a well-worded question. A ranged touch attack is something you roll against a touch AC, it has nothing to do with AoO's. What provokes AoO are the actions listed under the rules. These include the things which cause most ranged touch attacks to be rolled. i.e. using a ranged weapon, casting a spell, using a spell-like ability. These have various ways to get around provoking (concentration checks, quickened spells, special feats and class features, etc.), which are clearly listed in the main rules (concentration) or only matter if you have a certain class or monster or spell. If you have a supernatural or Ex ability to cause a ranged touch attack (e.g. beholder's eye rays), you don't provoke an AoO, because ex and Su abilities do not provoke AoO (monster manual page 290). Note the ability must cause the attack, not supplement an existing bow or spell or whatever.Thanks Al (and rest), I didn't note the distinction between "ranged touch attack" and "ranged weapon, casting a spell, etc"... It's the action type not the attack roll that matters... Thanks =) Question came up about firing a ray spell in melee combat last game and we weren't really certain about it... So aside from the standard AoO from casting (avoided through casting defensively), there wouldn't be a second AoO provoked from making a ranged touch attack while an opponent is adjacent... the defining line is the "ranged weapon" blerb. Thanks.
olshanski_home 05-04-07, 01:44 PM	No. Ranged touch attacks are typically from spells being cast. Spells provoke their own AoOs. If you are in a threatened space and you attempt to cast "Acid Arrow", you provoke once for casting a spell and a second time for using a ranged attack. If you were in a threatened space and you attempted to cast "Shocking Grasp", you only provoke once for casting the spell. A spell with a melee touch range does not provoke AoO.
Murrdox 05-04-07, 03:01 PM	If you are in a threatened space and you attempt to cast "Acid Arrow", you provoke once for casting a spell and a second time for using a ranged attack. If you were in a threatened space and you attempted to cast "Shocking Grasp", you only provoke once for casting the spell. A spell with a melee touch range does not provoke AoO. Uhhh no. You don't provoke TWO attacks of opportunity by casting a spell that involves a ranged touch attack. The ranged touch attack is part of the somatic component of casting the spell. It is not a separate action in itself. Things I can think of that would provoke attacks of opportunity using a ranged touch attack which are NOT spells or various monster abilities are mostly related to using devices. Things like throwing a Tanglefoot bag, alchemist's fire, or some other item where you intend on hitting the person but do not necessarily have to breech the AC. These would all involve ranged touch attacks, and would provoke AoO against anyone standing next to you.
starfire311 05-04-07, 03:15 PM	ok, here is how it works. casting a spell provokes Attacks of Opportunity Generally, if you cast a spell, you provoke attacks of opportunity from threatening enemies. If you take damage from an attack of opportunity, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + spell level) or lose the spell. Spells that require only a free action to cast don’t provoke attacks of opportunity. Casting on the Defensive Casting a spell while on the defensive does not provoke an attack of opportunity. It does, however, require a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to pull off. Failure means that you lose the spell. attacking with a ranged weapon provokes Ranged Attacks With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is ten range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions Ranged touch attacks do not provoke. If you cast a spell, that creates a ranged weapon that you then use to attack a target. This could provoke 2 AoOs, I believe Ice Knife may do this.
olshanski_home 05-04-07, 03:36 PM	A ranged touch attack is a subset of ranged attack. The "touch" just describes what AC you are trying to hit. (you only need to "touch" the target, you don't need to penetrate the armor or shield). Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature you’re aiming at. However, the rules also say that "touch" spells do not provoke attacks of opportunity: Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally. I suppose reading the above rules, it is easy to say that a ranged touch attack from a spell does not provoke an AoO. I am not totally happy with the wording used, but I'll submit that I was incorrect above.
Nom 05-05-07, 08:41 AM	Actually, a better answer is that the middle paragraph of the touch attack rules breaks one of the cardinal rules of writing: it introduces a new idea in the middle of a paragraph. Some of the rules in the paragraph are nonsensical in the context of ranged touch (vs melee touch). Some are not. Even the opening sentence is contradictory with respect to ranged touch (if it even applies): "Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity". The armed/unarmed distinction applies to melee attacks with manufactured or natural weapons vs unarmed strikes. "Armed attack" is not a category that applies to the "attack with a ranged weapon" rules, and is therefore inappropriate to apply to discussion of ranged touch attacks. Similarly, the rules in paragraph one ("touch spells in combat") and paragraph three ("holding the charge") can only be coherently applied to melee touch attacks. Summary: ranged touch should have had a separate rules subsection explaining how they behaved, rather than a passing comment on their existence in the middle of the melee touch attack rules. Summary 2: all that you can prove about AoOs and ranged touch attacks from PH pg 141 is that the editors failed badly. Comment: considering that "use a wand" doesn't provoke an AoO, I have no problem with allowing a ranged touch attack made as part of another action to not provoke its own AoO. But that is a matter of "game model reasoning", not explicit rules.
alangriffith 05-05-07, 06:13 PM	"You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon" does not mean it is a ranged weapon, it means that you aim it like a ranged weapon. Thats two reasons why it doesn't count as a ranged weapon for provoking: 1) It isn't a ranged weapon, it just has some similarities 2) The rule refers to how you aim, not whether you provoke. Aiming does not provoke. Under 'weaponlike spells' in complete arcane it states that any spell which requires an attack roll to hit and deals damage functions like a ranged weapon in some respects, and then lists them. Provoking attacks of opportunity is not on the list. You will also notice that the rules on ranged weapons (which provoke attacks of opportunity) are at the start of the equipment section, where all the weapons are listed. Spells are not listed on that table, or mentioned. Spells are not weapons, they are spells.