Post/Author/DateTime	Post
spikevampire 06-19-07, 08:37 PM	I hope it will be clear... Does damage reduction stacks with hardness??? For example if i play a mage with STATUE spell cast on him (player handbook) and i have some tipe of damage reduction like 5/ piercing, the former and the latter will stack? I know that adamantium weapons overcome the hardness but i think in all the other terms both hardness that damage reduction make their jobs.
weasel0 06-19-07, 09:03 PM	Well.... I'd fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants say no they don't stack. At best, some DM's may rule they overlap, use the better of the two. I feel(opinion) that DR is best used by flesh and blood. As stone(an object), hardness 8, DR no longer applies. You haven't lost it persay, just lost it's benefit. Oh, and adamantine weapons only ignore hardness up to 20. 21+ you have to damage over as a normal weapon would.
spikevampire 06-20-07, 05:57 AM	so you think they not stacks... anyone else?
Leilond 06-20-07, 06:07 AM	Well... stictly RULE talking I think that nothing prevent them from stacking It seems they're two different powers with different effect, they're similar effect but not the same. This is what I think
weasel0 06-20-07, 10:00 AM	I agree with you Leilond. Rules don't say they don't stack. I also think that Keen and Imp Crit should stack(except it's explicitly metioned they don't). After all, the effects are similar but one is a spell, the other is a feat. Two different sources, but they still don't stack. That's how I see DR and Hardness. Just my opinion after all.
Leilond 06-20-07, 10:05 AM	I agree with you Leilond. Rules don't say they don't stack. I also think that Keen and Imp Crit should stack(except it's explicitly metioned they don't). After all, the effects are similar but one is a spell, the other is a feat. Two different sources, but they still don't stack. That's how I see DR and Hardness. Just my opinion after all. Well... it's a rule. It's like saying "I think that an unarmed character should threaten the squares". The rules is there, and you can "like" or "dislike" it. It isn't a matter of "similar effect" in that issue, it is a matter of a specific rule.
goawayugh 06-20-07, 11:17 AM	Oh, and adamantine weapons only ignore hardness up to 20. 21+ you have to damage over as a normal weapon would. Actually adamantine (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#adamantine) ignores hardness "less than 20". Not 21+. Adamantine does not ignore the hardness of adamantine (20).
Karui_Kage 06-20-07, 11:46 AM	Well.... I'd fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants say no they don't stack. At best, some DM's may rule they overlap, use the better of the two. I feel(opinion) that DR is best used by flesh and blood. As stone(an object), hardness 8, DR no longer applies. You haven't lost it persay, just lost it's benefit. Oh, and adamantine weapons only ignore hardness up to 20. 21+ you have to damage over as a normal weapon would. Commenting on part in bold. You know that golems (stone creatures, or other types of non-flesh and blood) have DR #/Adamantine and the like, right?
goawayugh 06-20-07, 12:00 PM	I would say it deffinately stacks. Something needs to do more than your hardness before it can even start damaging you. Then once the damage hits you, your DR kicks in reducing it if it can. I see hardness as similar to armor. Something has to get through it first to get to you.
spikevampire 06-20-07, 03:13 PM	ok i also think that stacks, i am glad to see you answer i think that hardness is similar to gaara sand cloth, and damage reduction is something magic that is involved to skin or to damage regeneration. (see the monster manual description)
weasel0 06-20-07, 06:13 PM	Heehee, hence the "by-the-seat-of-the-pants" phrase up there. Apparently I grabbed the wrong side of the argument this time around. But either way, I've digressed that my view is not supported by RAW. Okay, so let me re-word my statement. Non-objects, use DR. Objects use Hardness. They are essentially the same thing, but applied to different statuses of existence. When the player is in "Statue"(object-he can't act or anything) mode, he has Hardness. When in "Normal" mode, he doesn't have hardness but DR. (Disclaimer: Read 1st paragraph) Oh, and the games I play in usually get "abandoned" before we can afford Adm.. so I was going off memory... not too bad seeing as I was only 1 off. :D Todels!!
Father Dale 06-20-07, 08:09 PM	I would think they stack. In a similar vein, consider an object that has 10 hardness and also has a Resist Energy (acid) 30. If the object is subjected to an acid attack, does it get the benefit of both its hardness and energy resistance, or just one?
weasel0 06-20-07, 11:37 PM	I'm pretty sure that since Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures;(and assuming a "normal object") the acid ignores the hardness, but then the Resistance protects it from 30pts a splash. Overlap. It gains the greatest benefit. Not both. Resistance isn't DR. Once again, similar, but don't stack. They overlap. See, we have three different things here that all do roughly the same thing. DR and Hardness are natural things a(n) character(object) has. One or the other. Resistance is a by product of the "a wizard did it" syndrome inheirent in playing D&D fantasy. Aside from the 19pt limit of Adam., Hardness is basically saying DR X/Adam. Here our stoned wizard... heh heh... has gained DR 8/Adam. Now with the 19pt limit, it's possible to get harder than Adam. so we create Hardness to help clarify when Adam. stops being helpful. To reiterate: Straight RAW does not support me. AKA-It doesn't say specifically one way or the other. It only lists Hardness for objects. This is my interpretation and as such is only IMHO. Thank you.
Marcus Majarra 06-21-07, 12:40 PM	Aside from the 19pt limit of Adam., Hardness is basically saying DR X/Adam. Not exactly. DR only applies to weapon damage, whereas hardness applies to all forms of damage.
runestar 06-21-07, 12:46 PM	Dr is not necessarily just a very thick skin. It could also be construed as some variant of fast healing. I find that this distinction is just enough to let it stack with hardness.:)
olshanski_home 06-21-07, 01:25 PM	I'm pretty sure that since (and assuming a "normal object") the acid ignores the hardness, but then the Resistance protects it from 30pts a splash. Overlap. It gains the greatest benefit. Not both. Hardness and energy resistance stack. acid and sonic do not bypass hardness, they are simply not reduced by a fraction as fire, cold, and electricity. If you read the paragraph carefully, you'll see that acid and sonic still have to overcome hardness. Q: Many animated objects have hardness scores. What affect, if any, will an animated object’s hardness have on spells used against the animated object? For example, an animated wooden table would have hardness 5, right? How would that hardness affect spells such as fireball, lightning bolt, Melf’s acid arrow, ray of frost, and magic missile? A: If the spell in question has an energy descriptor, hardness affects the attack as noted in the rules for damaging inanimate objects (see page 165 in the Player’s Handbook); here’s a summary: • Hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks. These attacks deal normal damage both to creatures and to objects, and thus would deal normal damage to an animated object (less the effect of the hardness). You would subtract 5 points for hardness from whatever damage a Melf’s acid arrow spell deals to the animated table in your example. • Hardness applies to electricity and fire attacks. These attacks deal half damage to inanimate objects, but animated objects are creatures and they take full damage (less the effect of the hardness). You would subtract 5 points for hardness from whatever damage a fireball or lightning bolt spell deals to the animated table in your example. Reduce the damage for a successful saving throw before you apply hardness. • Hardness also applies to cold damage. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to inanimate objects, but again, an animated object takes full damage less the effect of the hardness. You would subtract 5 points of damage for hardness from whatever damage a ray of frost spell deals to the animated table in your example. Since ray of frost deals only 1d3 points of damage, it will prove ineffective against the animated table unless you somehow increase the damage the spell deals. • Hardness applies to force attacks. These attacks deal normal damage both to creatures and to objects (when applicable), and thus would deal normal damage to an animated object (less the effect of the hardness). You would subtract 5 points for hardness from whatever damage a magic missile spell deals to the animated table in your example. A magic missile spell normally cannot be aimed at an object. Because an animated object is a creature, however, it can affect the animated table in the example.
Anathema 06-21-07, 01:46 PM	Dr is not necessarily just a very thick skin. It could also be construed as some variant of fast healing. I find that this distinction is just enough to let it stack with hardness.:) Ironically I find it a perfect reason to have it not stack with hardness. Objects don't heal on their own, nor do they have supernatural abilities of preternatural hardness. Adamantine, for example, does not confer DR to itself; it has additional hardness and hitpoints in comparison to a normal metal object. Reading through the Damage Reduction description in the DMG (page 291), its wording seems to clearly indicate that DR is meant for creatures, as that is the only thing they discuss in this section. Hardness is described only in the section for attacking objects. It seems as if the spirit of hardness and DR is that they do not apply to the same things.
weasel0 06-21-07, 01:53 PM	It seems as if the spirit of hardness and DR is that they do not apply to the same things. As there are valid errors points with some of my smaller details, I'll digress to saying this is most succintly what I meant.
Leilond 06-21-07, 06:36 PM	Ironically I find it a perfect reason to have it not stack with hardness. Objects don't heal on their own, nor do they have supernatural abilities of preternatural hardness. Adamantine, for example, does not confer DR to itself; it has additional hardness and hitpoints in comparison to a normal metal object. Reading through the Damage Reduction description in the DMG (page 291), its wording seems to clearly indicate that DR is meant for creatures, as that is the only thing they discuss in this section. Hardness is described only in the section for attacking objects. It seems as if the spirit of hardness and DR is that they do not apply to the same things. It can sounds logical. But something that seems logical to someone do not seems logical to someone else Only rules, are the same for all, and rules doesn't say nowhere that DR and Hardeness cannot be applied to the same things You can house rule it, that's sure
Anathema 06-21-07, 06:43 PM	The house rule would be to say that they stacked. Hardness is described only for objects. DR is described only for creatures/monsters. They are never described as affecting the same things, and nowhere is there a note that gives objects a DR or a creature a hardness. To say otherwise would require a house rule.
Leilond 06-22-07, 03:18 AM	The house rule would be to say that they stacked. Hardness is described only for objects. DR is described only for creatures/monsters. They are never described as affecting the same things, and nowhere is there a note that gives objects a DR or a creature a hardness. To say otherwise would require a house rule. The rules do not work like this. If there's a spell that give "Hardness" to something, it must specify that you cannot use that spell on a person or you can If there's a spell that give "DR" to a creature, it must specify that you cannot use it on an "animated object" or you can
Anathema 06-22-07, 01:45 PM	I'm not sure what you mean. "Target Object" prevents targetting creatures, and "Target creature" prevents targetting objects. I've seen a couple spells that grant damage reduction. Stoneskin, Iron Body, Protection from Arrows, and Gaseous Form; and of them specify that the target must be a creature. Which means the target cannot be an object. I haven't seen any spells that grant bonus hardness. That being said, "target object" is a valid target that prevents targetting creatures. There are lots of spells that only target objects, like Shatter. Perhaps you could provide an example I have overlooked that grants bonus hardness or that has an object as a valid target that grants DR. If you can do that, then I'll capitulate. Other than a specific example of a spell that does this, though, I'm really not sure what your point was.
Merestil Haye 06-22-07, 02:52 PM	The rules don't talk much about hardness and DR stacking, because the two can't easily be given to the same thing. DR is a property of creatures, and only creatures. Hardness is a property of objects, and only objects. And never those twin shall meet. It is actually impossible in the rules for something to be both a creature and an object. Either it has a Wisdom score and a Charisma score (and is thus a creature) or it has neither (and is thus an object). And yes, the rules do say you can't have a Wis score without a Cha score and vice versa. It may be possible to give something both, but there are not many ways. The ones I have thought of are : Animate Objects. An animated object is a creature, and thus a valid target for a spell such as Stoneskin that grants DR. Once the spell is running, of course, it continues to run until its duration expires or the protection is used up. The only question in my mind is whether the animated object loses its hardness. I can't see why it would though. Statue. A creature in statue form has hardness 8 as well as the effects of any spell granting DR running on it (because, again, a spell does not stop working if the recipient changes form to something that could not receive the spell).In such cases, because they are two different effects from two different sources, I believe they would stack.
spikevampire 06-22-07, 04:11 PM	another little question, for you if take the stone form while under effect of STATUE spell, what action is turn back a normal creature?ù and also damage reduction reduce only the weapon damage or also the falling damage or other similar effect?? (i know it can't reduce spells damage and other similar damage like energy damage caused by an explosion)
Merestil Haye 06-22-07, 06:41 PM	another little question, for you if take the stone form while under effect of STATUE spell, what action is turn back a normal creature?Turning to and from the statue state appears to be a free action as (according to the spell description) the subject can transform out of the statue form, take a full rounds actions and turn back into a statue in the same round. and also damage reduction reduce only the weapon damage or also the falling damage or other similar effect?? (i know it can't reduce spells damage and other similar damage like energy damage caused by an explosion)I'm not sure what the intent of the rules is. I don't apply DR to falling damage. (It does little enough as it is.)