Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Bonez 07-06-07, 05:16 PM	:confused: I am not even sure if i am posting this thread in the right place and i am sorry if i am not but i am new to the threads so try not to insult and or belittle me if i am mistaken. Now to the heart of the matter.:confused: :confused: If a character is paralyzed or stunned is it still allowed a reflex save? There are other condidtions that immobilize a character and in those cases are the allowed a reflex save or are they automatically affected by the spell. In one ot the forgotten realms manuals I think it is Lost Empires of Faerun there is a spell called crushing sphere, if the target fails its Reflex save it is encased in a sphere of force like otilukes resiliant sphere except each round it is constricted causing damage. Technically if a character is paralyzed and if it isnt allowed its reflex save u could cast this spell on a creature and kill it without it ever having a chance to defend itself if it is a powerful creatur u might have to renew the spell before the duration expires but basically it becomes a death spell with no save if its paralyzed? which also works on undead and constructs correct?:confused:
DrMorganes 07-06-07, 05:18 PM	You came to the right place! Paralyzed creatures cannot move, and therefore are not allowed a Reflex Save. I'll check on the Stunned option and post back. Edit: Got it. From the SRD: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). A Stunned creature WOULD get a Reflex Save. Rolling a Saving Throw isn't an action, and the bit about -2 AC and lost DEX bonus means you're not totally unable to defend yourself, so you can still move ... but not enough for a Move Action.
weasel0 07-06-07, 05:22 PM	what the next couple guys say.
primemover003 07-06-07, 05:25 PM	That's wrong... you always, ALWAYS get a save if the spell or effect allows one. If paralyzed or helpless you have an effective Dex score of 0 meaning you take a -5 penalty to the save. You take your Base Save -5 + any other modifiers like resistance bonuses. Just because you can't move doesn't deny you a save... it merely makes it really hard! Sheer luck also is factored into saving throws.
Archangel_Tyrael 07-06-07, 05:40 PM	primemover003 has it right. Saving Throws are Base save bonus + ability modifier Being Paralyzed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) means a character has an effective Str and Dex score of 0, and the character is Helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless). A paralyzed character's save is: Base Reflex Save Bonus - 5 + Magic (if any) + 1d20 = Saving Throw
Lord_Bonez 07-06-07, 06:04 PM	Ok. So the game rules state that u get a save with a major penalty(-5 because the targets dex drops to 0), but from a logical point of view and from what I have read about in novels if u cast hold person on some one they cant even blink let alone defend them self from the spell. So from a logical point of view how in the Nine Hells are u supposed to avoid a Fireball dropped right on your head, or for that matter any area of affect spell. So if u cast an area spell on some one that is going to affect all the area around them they cant dodge it because the are immobilized or try to protect themselves from the blast in anyway such as shielding their eyes from being burned right out of their skulls. I understand I can modify the rules in anyway that I want to because i am the DM but I am interested in how others might explain this??? Once again I would also like to state that I am no expert in the rules i just started playing less than a year ago and I greatly appreciate comments that are not condescending. I also appreciate all those who have previously posted for their insight and for the kind attitude in which they shared their knowledge.
Heros_Backpack 07-06-07, 06:30 PM	You can take purely mental actions so, assuming hp represent intangibles like luck and morale as well as physical damage, your 'reflex' save could be as simple as mentally bracing yourself to take the damage. For something like fireball, it could also include protection such as letting the tears flow and hoping that enough of your face got wet that the damage would be reduced.
primemover003 07-06-07, 09:05 PM	A fireball isn't perfectly spherical, neither is any area effect spell. They generally burst or spread or are cone shaped. In any case the effect doesn't neccessarily fill every bit of space in it's area of effect... there can be open spots or cold/warm spots that a lucky creature might fall into. That's why the spells allow saves for 1/2 in the first place. Even a paralyzed, bound, & blinded character saves on a nat 20! That aside, bringing reason and logic into why D&D mechanics work is a futile exercise. The game isn't supposed to be true to life. It's mechanics work well for a gaming environment. Use the Rules as Written for a while before trying to tweak the ruleset... they work well enough to have fun.
Archangel_Tyrael 07-06-07, 10:19 PM	For something like fireball, it could also include protection such as letting the tears flow and hoping that enough of your face got wet that the damage would be reduced. :rofl:
runestar 07-07-07, 12:00 AM	Being paralyzed would negate the benefits of evasion, but you still get a reflex save, though at a stiff penalty since your dex is effectively 1. Maybe just as the fireball is being cast, a stiff wind blows you over or something...:P
Merestil Haye 07-07-07, 09:28 AM	Fireballs and other area effect spells are not homogeneous. If they were, any creature entirely enclosed within the area and not on a boundary square wouldn't get a save either. The correct question to ask is "does Paralysis say the creature does not get a Reflex save?" The answer to that is No, Paralysis says nothing of the sort. Therefore a Paralysed creature does get a Reflex save against effects that normally allow one. As a counterexample, the Snatch feat explicitly denies a creature trapped in the mouth of the Snatching creature a reflex save against any breath weapon the Snatching creature may have.
Marcus Majarra 07-07-07, 11:32 AM	You should also take into account, as stated in the FAQ, that a saving throw involves a certain amount of luck (since you're rolling a d20 to do it). No save requires that you move or do anything else.
runestar 07-07-07, 01:45 PM	If it still offends your senses, bear in mind that such damage spells are typically reflex save: half, rather than reflex: negates. This means that even if a helpless character succeeds on his reflex save, he still takes damage. So if you are wondering how he managed to avoid that fireball while paralyzed, the answer is that he didn't.:)
tricky_bob 07-08-07, 07:08 AM	RAW - Yes Common Sense - No House Rule - Its up to you (or your DM)
Eater_Of_Souls 07-08-07, 07:26 AM	Well I once messed up my GM's ambush plans with a lucky spot check and a hold person -spell :P Thing is that tree was high like 10-15 meters high so baddie in the tree dropped like a rotten apple ... I have usually disallowed dex saves for paralysis, I treat not being able to have a save as part of the dangers from being paralysed.
mvincent 07-09-07, 06:57 PM	as stated in the FAQFrom the 3.5 FAQ (if desired): "A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate." and "If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep."