Dragon Advancement Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragon Advancement Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tos_shai_hulud
04-01-07, 12:14 PM In all example entries for dragons, they are shown as having skill points based on their current intelligence for their age category. All dragons gain intelligence as they gain age categories, so this is violating the principle that as a creature gains intelligence, it gains future skill points, not previous ones.

I can see this explained in a few different ways.

1. All example entries are wrong. They are written that way for simplicity, rather than a rather complicated effort to determine how many skill points they gained at each hit die.

2. Dragons have racial memory. This makes them an exception to the rule. As they gain intelligence, rather than simply making them smarter, it unlocks their racial memories. They gain access to skills they always possessed rather than learning or improving their current skills.

3. When a dragon gains an age category, it is treated as a new creature. Its stats reset to the base stats for its age category and it is essentially re-created with those new stats. This may fall in line with the explanation number 2.

Also, ability score increases seem difficult to figure out. All sample dragons have a constant dexterity of 10. What happens if a dragon decides to hone his dexterity and puts all ability score increases into dexterity? As he gets larger, his dexterity should wane, but perhaps that is already figured into his aging process.

My thoughts are that dragons are special. So, just as all sample dragons show, they should gain full skill points for their age category (heck, maybe even headbands of intellect grant them skill points). And they should also keep ability score increases (which the rules suggest they should lose as they gain age categories).

So, my questions are:
1. Should a dragon keep its ability score increases from one age category to the next (as opposed to the SRD entries)?
2. Should a dragon gain full skill points as it reaches a new age category (supported by sample dragons)?
olshanski_home
04-01-07, 02:42 PM Or you could think:

This is just a game, and for simplicity sake, we can calculate skill points based on its current status.
Seriously, although this is spelled out for Dragons, you could apply this to any creature with advancement... presumably that 12 HD giant had 3 ability point increases as it grew to 12 HD. What if some of those ability increases were spent on INT? THen how do you determine skills?

Seriously if you are the DM, it is easiest just to use your final creature ability and calculate skills from there, and not worry about how many HD or INT or skill points it has as it grows to adulthood.

Otherwise, good luck trying to figure out skill point for every creature... at some point the creature must have been a child. Presumably most chilren are not born with knowledge of all things, thus they either have no skills (which violates the minimum Class+INT*4 skill points at 1st level, or else they have a lower INT which messes with any sort of advancement.
tos_shai_hulud
04-01-07, 02:47 PM I understand what you are saying, but there are rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreImprov ement) for all creatures starting with racial hit dice. Dragons are unique in that they are one of the only races that nearly becomes a new creature as they advance. I understand that it is only a game, and I understand how it is easiest, but what happens if a PC decides to play a dragon? As a DM, I could simply say no, but if I choose to allow a player to play a dragon, I must consider the possibility of what happens when the dragon gains age categories.
olshanski_home
04-01-07, 03:47 PM You are really making this too difficult.

FIRST: The rules for advancing a creature applies only to the DM and the act of CREATING a creature for use in an encounter with EXTRA HD or with CLASS LEVELS. This is not the same as a creature that in your game world has only 5 HD and then somehow, during the course of the campaign, advances to 6 HD, which brings up #2:

SECOND: NPCs, Monsters, etcetera do NOT ADVANCE as PCs during the course of the campaign. There are absolutely no rules for calculating monster experience. No rules for advancement of monsters after gaining experience, and so forth. There are a very few cases, such as the Barghest, in which a creature can gain HD during the course of a campaign.

Seriously, if you as a DM need to have a young dragon, you do not create a wyrmling and then advance its HD until it becomes young. That is not how the rules for creature advancement work. If you need a young dragon, you just take a friggin young dragon.
If you need a Bugbear Wiz11, you do not create a bugbear, and then slowly advance it, increasing its INT along the way, and giving it new skills each level. You just creature your finished creature and you are done.

EDIT: If you want to have a player play as a dragon, then there are rules for level adjustment. There are not rules for advancing age categories, and it would probably be best to avoid it without also giving a character some increased LA for the higher age categories. Perhaps you can find some some house-rules or some supplemental rules that indicate appropriate LA for dragons beyond the very youngest.
A young brass dragon has 10HD and +4 LA, making it OK for 14th level characters.
A Juvinile brass dragon has 13 HD and +4 LA, making it OK for 15th level characters.

I believe if you want to use a dragon, and a player is willing to buy out the LA, and the character is advancing by racial HD instead of class levels, then it seems reasonable. I'd still use regular PC rules for advancement, and not allow retroactive INT bonus to skill points. This makes a PC dragon inferior to a pure DM-created monster dragon of the same HD.
tos_shai_hulud
04-01-07, 03:59 PM Edit: You posted your edit as I was making this post.
tos_shai_hulud
04-01-07, 05:18 PM That does make for an interesting thought. Perhaps with humans, only the greatest of humans adventure. For dragons, it is the opposite. Only the weak dragons adventure :-P.
Ace_of_time
04-02-07, 03:42 AM There are rules for advancing age catg for dragons. It's in the Draconomicon. You have to add the level adj into the hd to get what level he has to be to go up to the next age. So a black dragon fresh from the egg would have to gain 7 levels (4 hd and +3 level adj) before reaching age of 2 and then every level after that he would gain a hit die every level up until his level adj goes up. then he would have to take 1 level with no hd or benefits for level up. now they can multi class as long as the gain a dragon hd at every age group. (0, 2, 4, for wyrmling) When he gets to age six he moves up to very young.

So the black dragon would have to gain 7 levels ( 4hd)before 2 years old. Then he could multi class till he turns 2 at which he would have take a dragon HD on his next level up. this would keep going until he turns 24 years old at which his LA goes from +3 to +4 and he would have to gain a level with no benefits to cover the increased LA.

Now as a dragon goes up a age catg he unlocks dragonic knowledge that was locked away in his brain. That where the skill points come from.
Leilond
04-02-07, 06:29 AM I think we must think it the OPPOSITE direction

The "real dragon" is the most aged. FROM THAT you can go younger and calculate the "reduced" skill points

With "human" you make the same thing. A adult human cleric get (3+Int)x4 skill points. If the cleric is "younger" you can think to reduce that value a bit because you can argue "the cleric is still learning"

The same you can do with the dragon and for this reason you can think:
"Stats for younger dragons are simply the stats for older with some skill points removed"
runestar
04-02-07, 08:47 AM Draconomicon explicitly mentions that dragons gain retroactive skill points for int increase. I guess the justification is a mechanical one, to make it easier for dms to assign skill points(simply max out 6+int mod worth of skills), rather than having to deal with a mathematical conundrum which could make Einstein quiver.:)
Also, ability score increases seem difficult to figure out. All sample dragons have a constant dexterity of 10. What happens if a dragon decides to hone his dexterity and puts all ability score increases into dexterity? As he gets larger, his dexterity should wane, but perhaps that is already figured into his aging process.
Basically, they do not get stat bonuses for every 4th HD, they are already considered to have been factored into the stat bonuses it gets at each new age category. :)
tos_shai_hulud
04-02-07, 11:25 AM Awesome! Thank you!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tos_shai_hulud 04-01-07, 12:14 PM	In all example entries for dragons, they are shown as having skill points based on their current intelligence for their age category. All dragons gain intelligence as they gain age categories, so this is violating the principle that as a creature gains intelligence, it gains future skill points, not previous ones. I can see this explained in a few different ways. 1. All example entries are wrong. They are written that way for simplicity, rather than a rather complicated effort to determine how many skill points they gained at each hit die. 2. Dragons have racial memory. This makes them an exception to the rule. As they gain intelligence, rather than simply making them smarter, it unlocks their racial memories. They gain access to skills they always possessed rather than learning or improving their current skills. 3. When a dragon gains an age category, it is treated as a new creature. Its stats reset to the base stats for its age category and it is essentially re-created with those new stats. This may fall in line with the explanation number 2. Also, ability score increases seem difficult to figure out. All sample dragons have a constant dexterity of 10. What happens if a dragon decides to hone his dexterity and puts all ability score increases into dexterity? As he gets larger, his dexterity should wane, but perhaps that is already figured into his aging process. My thoughts are that dragons are special. So, just as all sample dragons show, they should gain full skill points for their age category (heck, maybe even headbands of intellect grant them skill points). And they should also keep ability score increases (which the rules suggest they should lose as they gain age categories). So, my questions are: 1. Should a dragon keep its ability score increases from one age category to the next (as opposed to the SRD entries)? 2. Should a dragon gain full skill points as it reaches a new age category (supported by sample dragons)?
olshanski_home 04-01-07, 02:42 PM	Or you could think: This is just a game, and for simplicity sake, we can calculate skill points based on its current status. Seriously, although this is spelled out for Dragons, you could apply this to any creature with advancement... presumably that 12 HD giant had 3 ability point increases as it grew to 12 HD. What if some of those ability increases were spent on INT? THen how do you determine skills? Seriously if you are the DM, it is easiest just to use your final creature ability and calculate skills from there, and not worry about how many HD or INT or skill points it has as it grows to adulthood. Otherwise, good luck trying to figure out skill point for every creature... at some point the creature must have been a child. Presumably most chilren are not born with knowledge of all things, thus they either have no skills (which violates the minimum Class+INT*4 skill points at 1st level, or else they have a lower INT which messes with any sort of advancement.
tos_shai_hulud 04-01-07, 02:47 PM	I understand what you are saying, but there are rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreImprov ement) for all creatures starting with racial hit dice. Dragons are unique in that they are one of the only races that nearly becomes a new creature as they advance. I understand that it is only a game, and I understand how it is easiest, but what happens if a PC decides to play a dragon? As a DM, I could simply say no, but if I choose to allow a player to play a dragon, I must consider the possibility of what happens when the dragon gains age categories.
olshanski_home 04-01-07, 03:47 PM	You are really making this too difficult. FIRST: The rules for advancing a creature applies only to the DM and the act of CREATING a creature for use in an encounter with EXTRA HD or with CLASS LEVELS. This is not the same as a creature that in your game world has only 5 HD and then somehow, during the course of the campaign, advances to 6 HD, which brings up #2: SECOND: NPCs, Monsters, etcetera do NOT ADVANCE as PCs during the course of the campaign. There are absolutely no rules for calculating monster experience. No rules for advancement of monsters after gaining experience, and so forth. There are a very few cases, such as the Barghest, in which a creature can gain HD during the course of a campaign. Seriously, if you as a DM need to have a young dragon, you do not create a wyrmling and then advance its HD until it becomes young. That is not how the rules for creature advancement work. If you need a young dragon, you just take a friggin young dragon. If you need a Bugbear Wiz11, you do not create a bugbear, and then slowly advance it, increasing its INT along the way, and giving it new skills each level. You just creature your finished creature and you are done. EDIT: If you want to have a player play as a dragon, then there are rules for level adjustment. There are not rules for advancing age categories, and it would probably be best to avoid it without also giving a character some increased LA for the higher age categories. Perhaps you can find some some house-rules or some supplemental rules that indicate appropriate LA for dragons beyond the very youngest. A young brass dragon has 10HD and +4 LA, making it OK for 14th level characters. A Juvinile brass dragon has 13 HD and +4 LA, making it OK for 15th level characters. I believe if you want to use a dragon, and a player is willing to buy out the LA, and the character is advancing by racial HD instead of class levels, then it seems reasonable. I'd still use regular PC rules for advancement, and not allow retroactive INT bonus to skill points. This makes a PC dragon inferior to a pure DM-created monster dragon of the same HD.
tos_shai_hulud 04-01-07, 03:59 PM	Edit: You posted your edit as I was making this post.
tos_shai_hulud 04-01-07, 05:18 PM	That does make for an interesting thought. Perhaps with humans, only the greatest of humans adventure. For dragons, it is the opposite. Only the weak dragons adventure :-P.
Ace_of_time 04-02-07, 03:42 AM	There are rules for advancing age catg for dragons. It's in the Draconomicon. You have to add the level adj into the hd to get what level he has to be to go up to the next age. So a black dragon fresh from the egg would have to gain 7 levels (4 hd and +3 level adj) before reaching age of 2 and then every level after that he would gain a hit die every level up until his level adj goes up. then he would have to take 1 level with no hd or benefits for level up. now they can multi class as long as the gain a dragon hd at every age group. (0, 2, 4, for wyrmling) When he gets to age six he moves up to very young. So the black dragon would have to gain 7 levels ( 4hd)before 2 years old. Then he could multi class till he turns 2 at which he would have take a dragon HD on his next level up. this would keep going until he turns 24 years old at which his LA goes from +3 to +4 and he would have to gain a level with no benefits to cover the increased LA. Now as a dragon goes up a age catg he unlocks dragonic knowledge that was locked away in his brain. That where the skill points come from.
Leilond 04-02-07, 06:29 AM	I think we must think it the OPPOSITE direction The "real dragon" is the most aged. FROM THAT you can go younger and calculate the "reduced" skill points With "human" you make the same thing. A adult human cleric get (3+Int)x4 skill points. If the cleric is "younger" you can think to reduce that value a bit because you can argue "the cleric is still learning" The same you can do with the dragon and for this reason you can think: "Stats for younger dragons are simply the stats for older with some skill points removed"
runestar 04-02-07, 08:47 AM	Draconomicon explicitly mentions that dragons gain retroactive skill points for int increase. I guess the justification is a mechanical one, to make it easier for dms to assign skill points(simply max out 6+int mod worth of skills), rather than having to deal with a mathematical conundrum which could make Einstein quiver.:) Also, ability score increases seem difficult to figure out. All sample dragons have a constant dexterity of 10. What happens if a dragon decides to hone his dexterity and puts all ability score increases into dexterity? As he gets larger, his dexterity should wane, but perhaps that is already figured into his aging process. Basically, they do not get stat bonuses for every 4th HD, they are already considered to have been factored into the stat bonuses it gets at each new age category. :)
tos_shai_hulud 04-02-07, 11:25 AM	Awesome! Thank you!