Druids and Animal Companions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Druids and Animal Companions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Myzery78
06-03-07, 06:37 PM Recently the druid in the party I DM for had his wolf gain several HD as part of the animal companion class feature. My player believes that the wolf increases in size as a result of these extra HD and as a result becomes large and gains the relevant bonuses and penalties of that size. At first I thought so too, however after being a slightly powerful pet become overly so Im starting to question it. I'd appreciate any information on the subject, as well as a source for the info. Thanks.
steventirey1985
06-03-07, 06:59 PM From the FAQ:
When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or ranger’s) animal companion as the master’s level goes up, does the animal get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in the Monster Manual, an “advanced” wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large?
An animal companion doesn’t get bigger when it adds extra Hit Dice for the master’s levels. The advancement entries for creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.
Apupunchau
06-03-07, 07:35 PM Wow really well I don't really read all the newest FAQ information and neither does my DM, which at this point I'm glad for.

a statement from the answer in the FAQ says:

The rules for advancing monsters, refer to unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.

and the opening line from the beginning of the animal companion section says:

A druid's animal companion is different from a normal animal of its kind in may ways.

and the last line says:

It is superior to a normal animal of its kind and has special powers

"Superior" and being tended to by a druiid who is known for helping trees and animals grow big and strong. I don't see why that an animal under the care of a druid wouldn't be groomed to grow big and strong (in other words grow in size if applicabale) from it's time with a master of the forest. Obviously the FAQ says other wise but I say it's up to you and there is every logical reason to think it would grow in size like a superior version (which is what it is) of a standard animal.
Nom
06-03-07, 08:35 PM Stop throwing the word "logical" around as a synonym for "agrees with my prejudices". Strictly, "logical" implies that there is a tight and necessary connection between the premises and conclusion. In a ruleset, the "logic" is "what do the rules say", and the PH sets out exactly how the creature advances.

* hp, BAB, BSB, feats, skills advance as per normal for gaining HD.
* The creature gains additional special abilities and ability score increases as listed on the table.
* The creature does not gain the normal 1 per 4 HD ability increase (by omission).
* The creature does not use the MM rules for "advancing monsters", which themselves add a different set of additional rules to the normal advancement rules.
Neutronium_Dragon
06-03-07, 08:41 PM Advancing a creature by HD as per the MM is still a separate process from advancing their HD through the Animal Companion feature.

An animal companion becomes tougher, and this is represented by a HD increase among various other effects. However, a HD increase doesn't inherently alter the creature's size. A creature which somehow gains class levels doesn't suddenly get bigger either, even though adding class levels also adds HD.

The MM approach for creating tougher base creatures specifically says that it alters the creature's size, and thus it does. However, this is used to create a tougher base creature, rather than representing one which has improved by "experience" as an animal companion effectively does.

Now, if you want a big wolf, you can trade up to a dire wolf later on (I don't recall just when that one becomes available, but I know it's there).
itwasntme
06-03-07, 08:43 PM Stop throwing the word "logical" around as a synonym for "agrees with my prejudices". Strictly, "logical" implies that there is a tight and necessary connection between the premises and conclusion. In a ruleset, the "logic" is "what do the rules say", and the PH sets out exactly how the creature advances.

* hp, BAB, BSB, feats, skills advance as per normal for gaining HD.
* The creature gains additional special abilities and ability score increases as listed on the table.
* The creature does not gain the normal 1 per 4 HD ability increase (by omission).
* The creature does not use the MM rules for "advancing monsters", which themselves add a different set of additional rules to the normal advancement rules.

This is the rules he stated it thanks Nom

A "Druid" Pet is BETTER then a normol version of it ... by "Bigger" It just means better as in More HD and other abilitys which is stated above

Even if the DM States it "Bigger" then the normol verstion then its only going to be Bigger by about 6 inches ... which Isnt enough to change its Size Catagory after all Dwarfs are Medium and there a little more then half the size of a human "But its a big dwarf!" Ok ... hes still medium ... IT Dosnt change the size at all the End
Mystic Lemur
06-04-07, 12:19 AM Stop throwing the word "logical" around as a synonym for "agrees with my prejudices". Strictly, "logical" implies that there is a tight and necessary connection between the premises and conclusion.
Gotta love the whole "I have a question, but I only want answers that fit my preconceived notions" shtick.
* The creature does not gain the normal 1 per 4 HD ability increase (by omission).
I disagree with this part, it is treated as a regular HD for all intents and purposes. The fact that the listing omits one of the normal benefits of gaining HD does not mean they don't get it.

Apparently I sit on the side of "legal, if not strictly forbidden" whereas you seem to be "illegal, unless strictly allowed" on this issue.
Nom
06-04-07, 02:53 AM I disagree with this part, it is treated as a regular HD for all intents and purposes. The fact that the listing omits one of the normal benefits of gaining HD does not mean they don't get it.That would be true if it actually said that it counts as a normal HD for all intents and purposes, but it doesn't. It says that it gains bonus HD, and then lists the effects of these bonus HD.
Apparently I sit on the side of "legal, if not strictly forbidden" whereas you seem to be "illegal, unless strictly allowed" on this issue.On this particular issue, my position is:
(1) It doesn't say that the ability boost is gained, nor imply that it should be.
(2) The animal gets +1 Str and +1 Dex for every 2 HD anyway.

If it weren't for #2, I'd probably assume that the lack of ability advancement was an oversight. Given that the critter already gains +2 Str and +2 Dex per 4 HD, I instead think that it was deliberate (in much the same way that MM creatures with more than 4 racial HD often "lose" their racial bonuses too).
Apupunchau
06-04-07, 11:17 AM Oh wow look at that I got the big smackdown from someone I've never even met before who much fun that is. First off I stated that obviously the FAQ says you’re supposed to do it one way and I acknowledged that they were the official rules. Then I said if he wanted to do it the other way that there was a logical thought patter that could take you that way. Unlike what you're doing I didn't say he had to do it one way and in no way shape or form did I say that my conclusion was the only logical conclusion because as I stated the FAQ says something different and the FAQ is obviously the literal rules. So next time" you" want to beat people around for saying something "you" don't agree with do it to some one who takes crap like that instead of doing it to me. As for your irrational fear of the word "logical", well that's between you and possibly a dictionary. If logic is "what do the rules say", then why would they need the FAQ to clear it up for the rest of the world and why would some one be asking the question on this board obviously to some what the FAQ clears up is obvious not an easy to get to "logical" conclusion.
runestar
06-05-07, 12:30 AM I disagree with this part, it is treated as a regular HD for all intents and purposes. The fact that the listing omits one of the normal benefits of gaining HD does not mean they don't get it.
I am inclined to agree that it would not get the +1 stat boost every 4th HD.
This is an interesting trend which seems fairly consistent amongst all the monsters with their own unique modes of advancement, such as the barghest (MM), redcap (MM3) and Maurezhi (CoTSQ). Effectively, it has been superseded by the other bonuses it accrues for those HD.

Nonetheless, I see nothing wrong with allowing it, though I would still enforce it for the sake of internal consistency.:)
Mystic Lemur
06-05-07, 11:48 PM After being shown the error of my ways (including my ability to blithely ignore an entire column of the chart I was referencing), I too now agree that you don't get the +1 stat / 4 levels. Just thought I would admit it. :)
Kouk
06-06-07, 03:25 AM I have asked CustServ in the past about this just to be sure, and they said that the companion is not "advancing" via gained HD, but because of its relationship to the druid.

It only gains abilities as spelled out in the druid entry on companions, and does not change size, nor does it get extra ability points every 4 HD.

The animal is not "leveling up", it doesn't get its own XP or anything. Just by being connected with the Druid (who is the one that is actually leveling up) the animals get stronger in certain ways.

Here is what I was told: Paladin Mounts, druid/ranger animal companions, and normal animals do get feats and skill points based on the HD they have. Paladin mounts and druid/ranger animal companions do not get any more ability score bumps for every 4 HD they advance because that is already covered by the physical ability score bumps they get at frequent intervals.

Remember that creatures do not normally advance in Hit Dice at all. The advancement entry in the Monster Manual is just used by the DM to create a more advanced version of a creature, not to make a currently existing creature grow more powerful.

It seems a bit contradictory that they would gain feats, skills, but not ability points, but it is spelled out in the rules in the PHB what they get from having more HD. Animal companions are pretty tough as it is, and already gain ability boosts and armor just from being associated with player characters.

This may or may not help, as many people see CustServ's name as mud.

Also, a druid isn't "raising" a companion to be big and strong. You find a companion after spending 24 hours in the wilderness and can freely dismiss them to get a new one. If your pet dies, oh well, spend a day in the woods and you have a new (possibly identical) pet. "Oh no! You killed Spot! You bastard -- now I have to spend 24 hours in the middle of nowhere to find Spot 2!" Raising things is done with the Handle Animal skill for rearing and even that doesn't make them stronger than normal adults.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Myzery78 06-03-07, 06:37 PM	Recently the druid in the party I DM for had his wolf gain several HD as part of the animal companion class feature. My player believes that the wolf increases in size as a result of these extra HD and as a result becomes large and gains the relevant bonuses and penalties of that size. At first I thought so too, however after being a slightly powerful pet become overly so Im starting to question it. I'd appreciate any information on the subject, as well as a source for the info. Thanks.
steventirey1985 06-03-07, 06:59 PM	From the FAQ: When you add Hit Dice to a druid’s (or ranger’s) animal companion as the master’s level goes up, does the animal get any bigger? For instance, when a druid has a wolf companion, the wolf starts out with the standard 2 Hit Dice and is size Medium. By the time the druid is 3rd level, the wolf has 2 bonus Hit Dice. According to the wolf entry in the Monster Manual, an “advanced” wolf with 4 Hit Dice would be Large. Is the example companion wolf also Large? An animal companion doesn’t get bigger when it adds extra Hit Dice for the master’s levels. The advancement entries for creatures, and the rules for advancing monsters, refer to unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds.
Apupunchau 06-03-07, 07:35 PM	Wow really well I don't really read all the newest FAQ information and neither does my DM, which at this point I'm glad for. a statement from the answer in the FAQ says: The rules for advancing monsters, refer to unusually powerful specimens that are simply tougher (and perhaps bigger) than normal for their kinds. and the opening line from the beginning of the animal companion section says: A druid's animal companion is different from a normal animal of its kind in may ways. and the last line says: It is superior to a normal animal of its kind and has special powers "Superior" and being tended to by a druiid who is known for helping trees and animals grow big and strong. I don't see why that an animal under the care of a druid wouldn't be groomed to grow big and strong (in other words grow in size if applicabale) from it's time with a master of the forest. Obviously the FAQ says other wise but I say it's up to you and there is every logical reason to think it would grow in size like a superior version (which is what it is) of a standard animal.
Nom 06-03-07, 08:35 PM	Stop throwing the word "logical" around as a synonym for "agrees with my prejudices". Strictly, "logical" implies that there is a tight and necessary connection between the premises and conclusion. In a ruleset, the "logic" is "what do the rules say", and the PH sets out exactly how the creature advances. * hp, BAB, BSB, feats, skills advance as per normal for gaining HD. * The creature gains additional special abilities and ability score increases as listed on the table. * The creature does not gain the normal 1 per 4 HD ability increase (by omission). * The creature does not use the MM rules for "advancing monsters", which themselves add a different set of additional rules to the normal advancement rules.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-03-07, 08:41 PM	Advancing a creature by HD as per the MM is still a separate process from advancing their HD through the Animal Companion feature. An animal companion becomes tougher, and this is represented by a HD increase among various other effects. However, a HD increase doesn't inherently alter the creature's size. A creature which somehow gains class levels doesn't suddenly get bigger either, even though adding class levels also adds HD. The MM approach for creating tougher base creatures specifically says that it alters the creature's size, and thus it does. However, this is used to create a tougher base creature, rather than representing one which has improved by "experience" as an animal companion effectively does. Now, if you want a big wolf, you can trade up to a dire wolf later on (I don't recall just when that one becomes available, but I know it's there).
itwasntme 06-03-07, 08:43 PM	Stop throwing the word "logical" around as a synonym for "agrees with my prejudices". Strictly, "logical" implies that there is a tight and necessary connection between the premises and conclusion. In a ruleset, the "logic" is "what do the rules say", and the PH sets out exactly how the creature advances. * hp, BAB, BSB, feats, skills advance as per normal for gaining HD. * The creature gains additional special abilities and ability score increases as listed on the table. * The creature does not gain the normal 1 per 4 HD ability increase (by omission). * The creature does not use the MM rules for "advancing monsters", which themselves add a different set of additional rules to the normal advancement rules. This is the rules he stated it thanks Nom A "Druid" Pet is BETTER then a normol version of it ... by "Bigger" It just means better as in More HD and other abilitys which is stated above Even if the DM States it "Bigger" then the normol verstion then its only going to be Bigger by about 6 inches ... which Isnt enough to change its Size Catagory after all Dwarfs are Medium and there a little more then half the size of a human "But its a big dwarf!" Ok ... hes still medium ... IT Dosnt change the size at all the End
Mystic Lemur 06-04-07, 12:19 AM	Stop throwing the word "logical" around as a synonym for "agrees with my prejudices". Strictly, "logical" implies that there is a tight and necessary connection between the premises and conclusion. Gotta love the whole "I have a question, but I only want answers that fit my preconceived notions" shtick. * The creature does not gain the normal 1 per 4 HD ability increase (by omission). I disagree with this part, it is treated as a regular HD for all intents and purposes. The fact that the listing omits one of the normal benefits of gaining HD does not mean they don't get it. Apparently I sit on the side of "legal, if not strictly forbidden" whereas you seem to be "illegal, unless strictly allowed" on this issue.
Nom 06-04-07, 02:53 AM	I disagree with this part, it is treated as a regular HD for all intents and purposes. The fact that the listing omits one of the normal benefits of gaining HD does not mean they don't get it.That would be true if it actually said that it counts as a normal HD for all intents and purposes, but it doesn't. It says that it gains bonus HD, and then lists the effects of these bonus HD. Apparently I sit on the side of "legal, if not strictly forbidden" whereas you seem to be "illegal, unless strictly allowed" on this issue.On this particular issue, my position is: (1) It doesn't say that the ability boost is gained, nor imply that it should be. (2) The animal gets +1 Str and +1 Dex for every 2 HD anyway. If it weren't for #2, I'd probably assume that the lack of ability advancement was an oversight. Given that the critter already gains +2 Str and +2 Dex per 4 HD, I instead think that it was deliberate (in much the same way that MM creatures with more than 4 racial HD often "lose" their racial bonuses too).
Apupunchau 06-04-07, 11:17 AM	Oh wow look at that I got the big smackdown from someone I've never even met before who much fun that is. First off I stated that obviously the FAQ says you’re supposed to do it one way and I acknowledged that they were the official rules. Then I said if he wanted to do it the other way that there was a logical thought patter that could take you that way. Unlike what you're doing I didn't say he had to do it one way and in no way shape or form did I say that my conclusion was the only logical conclusion because as I stated the FAQ says something different and the FAQ is obviously the literal rules. So next time" you" want to beat people around for saying something "you" don't agree with do it to some one who takes crap like that instead of doing it to me. As for your irrational fear of the word "logical", well that's between you and possibly a dictionary. If logic is "what do the rules say", then why would they need the FAQ to clear it up for the rest of the world and why would some one be asking the question on this board obviously to some what the FAQ clears up is obvious not an easy to get to "logical" conclusion.
runestar 06-05-07, 12:30 AM	I disagree with this part, it is treated as a regular HD for all intents and purposes. The fact that the listing omits one of the normal benefits of gaining HD does not mean they don't get it. I am inclined to agree that it would not get the +1 stat boost every 4th HD. This is an interesting trend which seems fairly consistent amongst all the monsters with their own unique modes of advancement, such as the barghest (MM), redcap (MM3) and Maurezhi (CoTSQ). Effectively, it has been superseded by the other bonuses it accrues for those HD. Nonetheless, I see nothing wrong with allowing it, though I would still enforce it for the sake of internal consistency.:)
Mystic Lemur 06-05-07, 11:48 PM	After being shown the error of my ways (including my ability to blithely ignore an entire column of the chart I was referencing), I too now agree that you don't get the +1 stat / 4 levels. Just thought I would admit it. :)
Kouk 06-06-07, 03:25 AM	I have asked CustServ in the past about this just to be sure, and they said that the companion is not "advancing" via gained HD, but because of its relationship to the druid. It only gains abilities as spelled out in the druid entry on companions, and does not change size, nor does it get extra ability points every 4 HD. The animal is not "leveling up", it doesn't get its own XP or anything. Just by being connected with the Druid (who is the one that is actually leveling up) the animals get stronger in certain ways. Here is what I was told: Paladin Mounts, druid/ranger animal companions, and normal animals do get feats and skill points based on the HD they have. Paladin mounts and druid/ranger animal companions do not get any more ability score bumps for every 4 HD they advance because that is already covered by the physical ability score bumps they get at frequent intervals. Remember that creatures do not normally advance in Hit Dice at all. The advancement entry in the Monster Manual is just used by the DM to create a more advanced version of a creature, not to make a currently existing creature grow more powerful. It seems a bit contradictory that they would gain feats, skills, but not ability points, but it is spelled out in the rules in the PHB what they get from having more HD. Animal companions are pretty tough as it is, and already gain ability boosts and armor just from being associated with player characters. This may or may not help, as many people see CustServ's name as mud. Also, a druid isn't "raising" a companion to be big and strong. You find a companion after spending 24 hours in the wilderness and can freely dismiss them to get a new one. If your pet dies, oh well, spend a day in the woods and you have a new (possibly identical) pet. "Oh no! You killed Spot! You bastard -- now I have to spend 24 hours in the middle of nowhere to find Spot 2!" Raising things is done with the Handle Animal skill for rearing and even that doesn't make them stronger than normal adults.