Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alyss 08-12-07, 07:59 PM	I can't find the rules regarding eating and sleeping anywhere. How long can a character go without them, and what effect does it have? Does anyone know either a) The answer to my questions or b) The page where I can find the rules for them? Thanks
Heros_Backpack 08-12-07, 08:03 PM	There are no official rules for sleeping, but there are these rules for starvation and thirst (also in the environment section right at the back of the DMG): Starvation And Thirst Characters might find themselves without food or water and with no means to obtain them. In normal climates, Medium characters need at least a gallon of fluids and about a pound of decent food per day to avoid starvation. (Small characters need half as much.) In very hot climates, characters need two or three times as much water to avoid dehydration. A character can go without water for 1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character can go without food for 3 days, in growing discomfort. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each day (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Characters who have taken nonlethal damage from lack of food or water are fatigued. Nonlethal damage from thirst or starvation cannot be recovered until the character gets food or water, as needed—not even magic that restores hit points heals this damage.
Alyss 08-12-07, 08:42 PM	Cheers. In regard to the not sleeping, I was thinking: A character must sleep for eight hours once a day. If he does not, he must pass a Will save (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or become fatigued. A fatigued character going without sleep becomes exhausted if he fails his save. An exhausted character going without sleep falls unconscious if he fails his save, and sleeps for 1d10 + 8 hours automatically, unless woken.
calronmoonflower 08-12-07, 08:43 PM	No real rules exist that require sleep for any character. Spell rules (and similar mechanics) refer to resting to recover spells and the like, but sleep isn't really necessary.
Alyss 08-12-07, 08:49 PM	No real rules exist that require sleep for any character. Spell rules (and similar mechanics) refer to resting to recover spells and the like, but sleep isn't really necessary. Sleep is highly neccessary. A party that is regularly attacked, at any time of the day, will undoubtedly start to come apart.
calronmoonflower 08-12-07, 09:30 PM	Sleep is highly neccessary. A party that is regularly attacked, at any time of the day, will undoubtedly start to come apart. In the real world yes. In Dungeons and Dragons no.
Sildatorak 08-13-07, 01:52 AM	Can someone please explain why character's don't need sleep?There are no rules consequences for not sleeping. The only thing in the rules that even suggests that sleep is needed for something other than spell recovery is the mention that elves do their trance thing instead of sleeping. Any rules answer you get regarding sleep will be a houserule. A character must sleep for eight hours once a day. If he does not, he must pass a Will save (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or become fatigued.Personally, I think this is a bit harsh if we're trying to mimic the real world. A lot of people function fairly normally on 6 or 7 hours of sleep every night. I also dislike the saving throw aspect, I'd say a wis or con check would be more in keeping with the other rules regarding denying your body.
FponkDamn 08-13-07, 02:01 AM	See, D&D is set in a fantasy setting that exactly mirrors the middle ages in all ways. In the D&D world, there are no elves, dragons, magic powers, artifacts, or what have you. But the characters never sleep, so they're clinically insane, so they imagine all that stuff. Hence, fun! Seriously though. Of course characters need to sleep, there's just no real mention of it in the D&D books. And even with your houserule, there are plenty of spells and effects that remove fatigue - divine spellcasters don't need to sleep to regain their spells, and the spell Healing Lorecall (2nd level cleric spell out of SC) lets all your healing spells, even the 0-level ones, remove fatigue (among other things) so given your houserule, clerics just don't need to sleep, ever. Nor do their parties. The only real way to houserule sleep is to just say "Seriously guys, you're really tired." People need to sleep. It seems like you're looking for the rule just so you can impose it on your players because they're not sleeping, because you're attacking them every night. If you really want, just say "okay, this morning you all awake still fatigued because you got up several times during the night to defeat monsters." That's really the extent of what you need to do to reflect the characters' need for sleep. - Johnny
Pegasos989 08-13-07, 02:57 AM	I have slept 5-6 hours a night for nearly three months now (with less than half a dozen exceptions, don't ask why) with no real problems. If I need to something long and boring like putting thousands of documents in alphabetical order, I can't concetrate. I can however lift weights, run, etc. with no problem so I am not fatigued. I don't need to spend my days fighting but then again, I am a first level commoner with propably negative modifier on fortitude saves. So requiring that the 8th level fighter sleeps 8 hours a night or is at risk of being fatigued is just rediculous. Actually, I would say that 6 hours a night is the standard for DnD adventurers to sleep if they rest 8 hours and one of each 4 party members is awake for 2 hours keeping watch, everyone sleeps 6 hours and rests awake for two. But now... If we need a mechanic, I think it is mainly of physical endurance so fortitude saves. Maybe... After second night in a row of having less than 6 hours of sleep, you start rolling fortitude saves (starting from DC 10) with DC getting higher by 1 for each night spent without proper sleep (2 if you get no sleep at all). After the save is failed, character becomes fatigued. The DC resets back to 10 and starts rising again, when character fails the second save, he becomes exhausted. But really... A 2nd level lesser restoration spell removes fatigue. So after party gets to third level, they would never need to worry about that again (granted it would take spell slots)
Kaldric 08-13-07, 03:16 AM	There are no explicit rules for what happens if you don't sleep, in the Core Books. However, there are several places where a necessity for sleep is explicitly stated in the core rules. I'll go into some of those below. As a suggestion, apply the rules for hustling or force-marching. Basically, if you don't sleep for 8 hours a night, you get fatigued, then exhausted, then take nonlethal damage, then you're unconscious. Stretch that out for whatever period seems appropriate to you, apply fortitude saves to avoid the damage/state changes, go to town. -------- It says on page 15 of the PHB that all the common races, apart from the Elf, sleep. So, Humans, Halflings, Half-Orcs, Gnomes, Half-Elves, Dwarves and so on sleep. A "full night's rest" is defined on page 145 of the PHB as "8 hours of sleep or more". So, we know that to get a full night's rest, you have to sleep. Not if you're an elf, but we'll ignore elves. Any time in the rules where it says you need a full night's rest, it means sleep, unless there is an exception, which is then noted. The Tomb-Born Vitality feat (Libris Mortis, page 31) removes the "need to sleep..." which tells us implicitly that characters need to sleep. It says that spellcasters can now just rest but not sleep with the benefit of this feat. This implies that spellcasters must sleep, not just rest, without the feat. The Insomniac flaw in Dragon magazine (328, page 43) defines what happens when a character doesn't get a full night's rest in the normal scheme of things, which we already know means 8 hours of sleep. Basically, if they don't get a full night's rest, (8 hrs sleep) they become fatigued. The next night, they become exhausted. These are presented as the normal consequences of not getting a full night's sleep. On page 164 of the PHB, the rules state that "hustling for a second hour between sleep cycles deals..." According to this, you cannot hustle more than once in your adventuring career, if you don't sleep at least once. On page 146 of the PHB, it states that being exhausted deals nonlethal damage. (although it never seems to say how much) What does all this peripheral information tell us? That it would be really neat if WotC put this in the glossary next time around. Sleep: All races, unless specifically noted otherwise, must sleep. The default amount of sleep necessary is 8 hours per 24 hour period, and any exceptions are noted on the race's description. Being awake for a 24 hours straight results in a condition of fatigue. Being awake for a further 24 hours results in exhaustion. Exhaustion: (all the other stuff, plus...) Characters/NPCs/Monsters who maintain themselves in a state of exhaustion take 1d6 non-lethal damage per hour, until they fall unconscious. --- There are constant references to the necessity of a night's sleep in the rules. Wizards must sleep "a full night's sleep" to prepare spells. Characters must sleep "8 hours or more" to naturally heal hit point damage. You can't hustle more than an hour between sleep cycles without taking nonlethal damage. It seems fairly obvious that sleep is, by the rules, necessary. Most people don't have any problem with the idea that you need to sleep around 8 hours per night. Using the rules from Dragon for the fatigued the first night of sleeploss, exhausted the second, and then treating further exertion while exhausted as dealing some kind of nonlethal damage until the character falls unconscious appears to be what various writers have intended. Unfortunately it's not more clear, and requires people to intelligently extrapolate from available data.
Pegasos989 08-13-07, 03:29 AM	Hmm, hadn't noticed those references ever before. Damn. Okay, gotta agree that spellcasters need 8 hours of sleep to prepare spells, etc. :( I can even understand a wizard needing to sleep 8 hours to have 100% concentration. However, those rules you presented seem... hmm. two days (48 hours) without sleep and then one hour would give me enough nonlethal damage to make me unconcious. However, this doesn't happen to me in real life (unless I sit down and say "I'll just close my eyes for a few seconds" but that should be save-dependant!). I think it is really wierd if higher level fighter too starts taking nonlethal damage so that 8th level fighter will fall unconcious in 3 days of not sleep, no save, no anything. And we are now talking about a guy who could signle-handedly defeat 4 ogres.
Kaldric 08-13-07, 04:43 AM	Just throwing out some numbers. If this problem ever came up in my games, I'd use this: After 24 hrs awake: DC 10 fort save or fatigued Each hour adds 1 to the DC until the subject is fatigued, then the DC resets to 10 and continues each hour, adding 1 to the DC until the subject is exhausted, then resets to 10 and continues adding 1 each hour until the subject takes 1d6 nonlethal, then resets to DC 10 and continues adding 1 each hour until the subject fails another save, at which point the nonlethal damage doubles and the process repeats. So, first failed save causes fatigue. Then exhaustion. Then 3.5 nonlethal, then 7, then 14, then 28, then 56, then 112. By the time the 8th failed save hits, that's 220 or so, most high-level PCs will be unconscious. If you fail all the saves and have low hp, you'll last a day and a half, maybe. If you fail the saves only on a natural 1, and are a 20th level barbarian, you'll probably last a week or so. Something like that. Seems okay to me.
Pegasos989 08-13-07, 08:41 AM	Just throwing out some numbers. If this problem ever came up in my games, I'd use this: After 24 hrs awake: DC 10 fort save or fatigued Each hour adds 1 to the DC until the subject is fatigued, then the DC resets to 10 and continues each hour, adding 1 to the DC until the subject is exhausted, then resets to 10 and continues adding 1 each hour until the subject takes 1d6 nonlethal, then resets to DC 10 and continues adding 1 each hour until the subject fails another save, at which point the nonlethal damage doubles and the process repeats. So, first failed save causes fatigue. Then exhaustion. Then 3.5 nonlethal, then 7, then 14, then 28, then 56, then 112. By the time the 8th failed save hits, that's 220 or so, most high-level PCs will be unconscious. If you fail all the saves and have low hp, you'll last a day and a half, maybe. If you fail the saves only on a natural 1, and are a 20th level barbarian, you'll probably last a week or so. Something like that. Seems okay to me. Yeah, that seems quite usable. :)
mvincent 08-13-07, 12:40 PM	From the WotC custserv database (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=999): "The rules are silent on not sleeping at all, but based on the penalties you receive from a night of uncomfortable rest (page 122 of the 3.5 Player's Handbook, under Sleeping with Armor Worn) a Dungeon Master could assume that not sleeping at all could have some pretty hefty penalties. One house rule could be that the person becomes exhausted after not sleeping an entire night. But of course, since there are no rules covering this situation, it is ultimately up to the Dungeon Master of your campaign to determine how he/she wants to handle a character who hasn't slept."
gixanthrax 08-15-07, 08:33 AM	In one of my earlier parties, we had rulde that 4 hours/ per day would suffite, but that time had to be at once, so being waked after 3 hours and 59 minutes meant you had to restart your sleeping cycle again. but now our DM insists on 8 hours of uninterfered sleep. As we are a party of 4 that means we have 2 watch cycles, because we once tried it with only 1 person standing guard just to have his throat slit. So we are limted to 8 hours action per day. This definitely sucks, becuase the cleric needs one hour to pray, eating, cooking and so on also consune time, so if we are traveling overland and need to cover quite some distances, we are limited to 6 hours walking/riding time per. Our DM stated that this was done to " control our actio radius and to avoid surprises"
Nom 08-15-07, 10:15 AM	The intent of the rules is that you get 8 hours of activity per day, with the rest being spent in down-time (camping, sleeping, preparation, maintenance, etc). You'll note that the movement rules (PH chapter 9) and the various crafting rules all assume an 8 hour "work" day. For some reason, ships row for 10 hours a day rather than 8, but let's not worry about that. Smart characters can set things up so that prep time and guard time overlap. Your cleric or wizard who is preparing spells might not be particularly alert, but they are alert enough to be backup for the guy that is actually guarding. Even in the unlikely event that someone ambushes him and grabs him so that he can't yell out, all he needs do is kick some armour or make some sort of noise and the spellcaster can be alert. Similarly, general maitenance and eating can overlap with guarding, as long as at least one guy is paying full attention to guarding at any given time.
mvincent 08-15-07, 12:11 PM	our DM insists on 8 hours of uninterfered sleep.The typically rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm) is: "To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours." "If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest"
Kaldric 08-15-07, 09:53 PM	The whole 8 hours uninterrupted is pushing it. I figure as long as nonspellcasters get 8 hours a day, they can split that into a few naps. People do that all the time.
Cyrendil 08-15-07, 11:07 PM	From the PHB, page 164: "Walk: A character can walk 8 hours in a day of travel without a problem. Walking for longer than that can wear him or her out (see Forced March, below.) [...] Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating. [...]For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Con check (DC 10 + 2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of Nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued." From PHB Glossary, page 308: "fatigued: Tired to the point of impairment. [...] Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued. exhausted: Tired to the point of significant impairment. [...] After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued." From DMG, page 33 under Ability Checks: "The game has no rules for trying to stay awake through the entire night, writing down every word someone says without a mistake, or opening the stuck lid of a container without spilling a single drop of its contents. However, in the course of an adventure any of these situations could potentially make or break an encounter. You have to be ready to make up checks for such non-standard activities. Using the example situations above, staying awake might be a Constitution check (DC 12, +4 for every previous night without sleep,) with an elf character gaining a +2 bonus on her check because an elf is only giving up 4 hours of trance instead of 8 hours of sleep. [...]" From DMG, page 30, under Delineating Tasks "Character on Watch: The rest of the party sleeps while Mialee takes the watch. The DM asks for a Listen check about half an hour into her watch, and she succeeds. She hears a rustling noise in the nearby bushes (made by a goblin that was trying to sneak up on the party.) She decides to investigate, but discovers nothing (the goblin successfully concealed itself,) so decides to go back to where she was keeping watch. Later, the DM asks for another listen check (as the goblin once again tries to move in,) and she succeeds again. This time she catches the goblin and alerts the rest of the party to deal with the foe. Eventually they go back to sleep, and she goes back on watch. Later, the DM calls for another Listen check, even though he knows there's nothing to hear this time." So, as others have pointed out, even though there is no official set-in-stone rule for sleeping at night, enough information can be gleaned throughout the manuals to see that it is at least expected of the players. Personally, I think the Constitution check for staying awake all night mentioned above would work, with the only penalty for failing being that you fall asleep until someone or something wakes you up forcefully (or after 1d6 +4 hours, whichever comes first.) They would only be fatigued the next day if they happened to fall asleep while wearing their medium/heavy armor. I also wouldn't impose nonlethal damage until at least 2 or 3 days have passed without sleep - perhaps a separate Constitution check each day beyond the second, with a failure resulting in 1d6 nonlethal damage and fatigue, which can only be cured with rest, just as hunger/starvation can only be cured with food/drink. And to those saying 6 or so hours of sleep a night is no problem, keep in mind that our daily lives are not quite as strenuous as an 8-hour romp through a dungeon wearing heavy armor and equipment while fighting off hordes of monsters (except, of course, those that work retail.) I'd say a good, long night's rest is called for after the typical adventure - but that's just my opinion.
JustinA 08-15-07, 11:17 PM	Here's a relatively simple set of house rules I came up with a few years ago: LACK OF SLEEP If you are not fatigued or exhausted, you can stay awake for a number of hours equal to your Constitution score. If you stay awake beyond that point, you become fatigued. A fatigued character can only stay awake for a number of hours equal to their Constitution score before becoming exhausted. A character who gets a full night's sleep (8 hours) is completely refreshed (and can again stay awake for a number of hours equal to their Constitution score). If a character cannot get a full night's sleep, however, they still increase the number of hours they can remain awake by twice the number of hours of sleep they got (up to a maximum of their Constitution score). For example, a character with a Constitution of 12 stays awake for 10 hours. They could stay awake for another 2 hours before becoming fatigued, but they go to sleep. Unfortunately, they are awakened in the middle of night after getting only 2 hours of sleep. After being awakened, they could remain awake for another 6 hours before becoming fatigued (2 hours from the day before plus 4 hours for the two hours they were ablet to sleep). SLEEPING IN ARMOR Sleeping in armor does not prevent or remove fatigue. It does prevent and remove exhaustion. In general, this means that sleeping in armor automatically makes a character fatigued the next day. FORCED MARCHES In a day of normal walking, you walk for 8 hours. You spend the rest of the daylight time making and breaking camp, resting, and eating. After walking for 8 hours, a character is fatigued. A character can walk for more than 8 hours a day by making a forced march. After the first additional hour of marching, a character becomes exhausted. SWIMMING Each hour that you swim, make a Swim check against DC 20. A failure results in the character becoming fatigued. These rules don't play exactly the way the rules are described in the core rulebooks, but they do centralize the mechanics. The main advantage here is that, under these rules, attempting to swim for more than an hour after staying awake for three days straight is a bad idea. As a variant, you could allow a character with a high Constitution score to reduce the number of hours of rest required to recover from fatigue by a number of hours equal to their Constitution bonus (minimum 1 hour). And maybe allow characters with the Endurance feat to get by on half as much rest. Justin Alexander http://www.thealexandrian.net
Sildatorak 08-15-07, 11:54 PM	I'd probably push it up at least several hours in that rule JustinA. I think the average person can easily stay awake for 16 hours without significant weariness if they've had a good night's sleep.