Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raxmei 05-05-07, 02:43 AM	Just like it took me embarrassingly long to find the rules for digging, I can't find the rules for sleeping. I know there are rules saying how long it is necessary to sleep each night and what happens if you don't get enough of it, but I just can't find them. Page numbers or SRD chapter titles appreciated.
tos_shai_hulud 05-05-07, 08:26 AM	I don't know where to find it, but after 24 hours, if you don't get at least 8 hours of rest (not necessarily sleep, but rest), you become fatigued. If you are already fatigued, you become exhausted. I believe you need six hours of sleep per night. Once again, I don't remember where I saw that.
Marcus Majarra 05-05-07, 12:31 PM	Actually, sleeping is not covered at all in the rules. In fact, rest is only necessary in a few instances: 1) Recovering arcane spellcasting ability 2) Overcoming existing fatigue
Vharuck 05-06-07, 01:24 AM	I'd say go with the fatigued then exhausted, but then have it deal ability damage to every ability each day after that (it would heal should they rest). People without sleep are weaker, less coordinated, slowly dying (supposedly going long enough without sleep is fatal), and severely impaired mentally (thought disorders and hallucinations).
Kouk 05-06-07, 03:17 AM	There aren't core rules about it, but I usually say you're fatigued after 24 hours of not sleeping and then exhausted after another 24 hours. It never came up for what happens a third day, I guess I would start giving stat penalties beyond that. Maybe Fort saves or you pass out.
MarkB 05-06-07, 08:15 AM	The way I'd tend to do it (it's never actually come up in-game) is to start calling for hourly Constitution checks after the first 24 hours, at cumulative DCs, similarly to those for starvation or thirst. Failing a check makes you Fatigued, and failing a second check makes you Exhausted. After that, you must make checks at 30 minute intervals, or fall asleep as the sleep spell, except that you will not awaken naturally for eight hours. EDIT: For elves, I'd double all those time intervals, and failing the final save drops them into a trancelike meditative state for four hours.
alangriffith 05-06-07, 09:14 AM	In Icewind Dale (the 3rd Ed D+D computer game) your characters went fatigued after 24 hours without sleep. This suggests to me it may have been a 3rd Ed rule. Whether this is true or not, it is a reasonable house rule for 3.5
Pegasos989 05-06-07, 11:59 AM	I'd say go with the fatigued then exhausted, but then have it deal ability damage to every ability each day after that (it would heal should they rest). People without sleep are weaker, less coordinated, slowly dying (supposedly going long enough without sleep is fatal), and severely impaired mentally (thought disorders and hallucinations). It isn't fatal. A healthy man (let's say commoner 1 with constitution 10) should be able to go without hallucinations for atleast two days with no problem (that is how much I have went before sleeping). The way I'd tend to do it (it's never actually come up in-game) is to start calling for hourly Constitution checks after the first 24 hours, at cumulative DCs, similarly to those for starvation or thirst. Failing a check makes you Fatigued, and failing a second check makes you Exhausted. After that, you must make checks at 30 minute intervals, or fall asleep as the sleep spell, except that you will not awaken naturally for eight hours. EDIT: For elves, I'd double all those time intervals, and failing the final save drops them into a trancelike meditative state for four hours. So, it is possible that after 27 hours of being awake, you will fall asleep even in the middle of a battle? Seriously... No! Those are unrealistic even for me and I think I would be commoner 1, con maybe 9 or so. I would personally rule that after 24 hours without sleep, an adventurer would make a fortitude save or become fatigued. After 48 hours, he will become fatigued even if he succeeded. As fatigue effects stack... If you did something tiring (which would make you fatigued)... ...and failed a save, you would be exhausted after the day without sleep. ...and made the save, you would be exhausted after two days without sleep. If you did nothing tiring ...and failed your save, you would be fatigued after 24 hours, exhausted after 48. ...and made your save, you would be fatigued after 48 hours and exhausted after 72. I see no reason to make anyone go beyond exhausted. Human doesn't (exhausted makes you already weaker than a child...) and any adventurer wants to end that as soon as possible. If you would then like to add something, maybe call for fortitude saves or fall asleep when doing something boring and easy (like spending the night in watch)... EDIT: And more to elaborate... I have been two days without sleep (then slept for 2 to three hours before spending a third day) on a big LAN party. So nothing tiring but still two days without sleep and I certainly wasn't exhausted. Half a speed? -6 to dex and CON? In addition to being unable to run or charge (due to fatigue)? No no no...
tos_shai_hulud 05-06-07, 01:35 PM	D&D really doesn't have an accurate mechanism to represent the effects of sleep deprevation. For instance, during periods of "droning" (as the military calls it), humans are effectively mindless. They have little to no situational awareness, yet they can put one foot in front of the other and respond to confrontations. While their speed is quickly reduced, accuracy lasts far longer. An individual undergoing sleep deprevation may be able to hit a target, but will not respond to stimuli rapidly, so a moving target may prove to be an challenge. If you would like to take a look at sleep deprivation data, the findings presented here (http://www.usafa.af.mil/jscope/JSCOPE97/Belenky97/Belenky97.htm) are relatively easy to understand.
Nom 05-06-07, 08:07 PM	Easiest way to model lack of sleep is the forced march rules (PH chapter 9).
ranewen 05-06-07, 08:22 PM	if you think about sleep in real life terms.. the longest someone has gone without sleep is 11 days.. it took just 8 hrs for them to recover.. but do this.. try staying up for like 36 or 48 hrs. your head starts to hurt, and you have difficulty concentrating, and are sleepy.. the longest i've gone is 5 days with only a collective 30 min nap (at night i was able to lay down to rest my body so i wasn't fatigued, but my mind wouldn't stop) if you make your own penalties based off of this, you could incur a -1 per day without rest on checks requiring concentration or thought based activities, in addition to being fatigued (imagine being in the king's court, and yawning as you roll that diplomacy check). but it only takes 8 hrs of sleep to recover. maybe remove the fatigue-ness if they at least stay still (not even studying a book) for 8 hrs at "rest" even if their mind can't oh, and btw, around about day 8 or 9, you start to hallucinate, and go crazy :P
endofdreams 05-06-07, 10:03 PM	I was told last week through word of mouth that a human would die if they went 13 days without sleep. Of course, this was simply word of mouth and they didn't give me any kind of empiracle data to support this claim. I myself have stayed up for 6 days while on a massive video game spree. Things become very surreal at that point.:twitch:
tos_shai_hulud 05-07-07, 02:07 AM	I was told last week through word of mouth that a human would die if they went 13 days without sleep. Of course, this was simply word of mouth and they didn't give me any kind of empiracle data to support this claim. I myself have stayed up for 6 days while on a massive video game spree. Things become very surreal at that point.:twitch: I believe that psychological experiments involving drugs have been successful in keeping test subjects awake artificially for more than thirty consecutive days. I am not sure which psychology book I read which contained the exact data, but I believe that 11 days is the longest a human has been kept awake without the use of strong doses of caffeine injections (among other drugs).
Saberus 05-07-07, 02:23 AM	IDK where the rules for sleep are(methinks it's in the back of the DMG), but I've gone 136 hours without sleep, started hearing things at 60 hours, seeing things at 72 hours. It only got worse from there, the dark images that I saw worry me to this day, as it could have only come from my twisted psyche. :shudders:
Pegasos989 05-07-07, 02:23 AM	And I also believe that the torturing methods based on keeping someone awake aren't included, so 11 days is propably how long a human can stay awake without being helped in it with medicine or forced to stay awake... EDIT: Naturally world record, not just anyone of us. But the adventurers are meant to be above us anyways. EDIT2: But then again, it isn't meant to be realistic. I don't know who wrote the enviromental dangers for cold but I think he lived in some very warm place. I think that I once counted that for about three months per year, I would die once per hour spent outside. In the coldest times, I would take 25d6 +25d4 damage just when I walk to school.
CroBob 05-07-07, 03:30 AM	I'd say go with the fatigued then exhausted, but then have it deal ability damage to every ability each day after that (it would heal should they rest). People without sleep are weaker, less coordinated, slowly dying (supposedly going long enough without sleep is fatal), and severely impaired mentally (thought disorders and hallucinations). Lack of sleep cannot kill you. Not in real life. You might go totally nuts until you rest, but you will not die.
tos_shai_hulud 05-07-07, 03:47 AM	Lack of sleep cannot kill you. Not in real life. You might go totally nuts until you rest, but you will not die. This is currently unproven. Animals (such as rats) can die from sleep deprivation. Long term sleep deprivation on humans is considered inhumane, so experimentation is virtually impossible to see if sleep deprivation can be fatal to humans.
alangriffith 05-07-07, 06:49 AM	I read the Soviets (being inhumane) did sleep deprive someone until his organs started shutting down (which would suggest death is short order if he hadn't stopped) This was at least thirty days or so without sleep. However there seem to be a lot of contradictory ideas about sleep deprivation (each of which claims to be supported by research) so I can't be certain what I read was correct.
mvincent 05-07-07, 12:39 PM	From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm): "Sleeping in Armor A character who sleeps in medium or heavy armor is automatically fatigued the next day." Logically*, not sleeping at all will be at least as bad as sleeping in armor. * there might be a couple people that would try to argue that point. I might have to mock them.
lastknightleft 05-08-07, 04:05 PM	I actually will take you up on that argument, Sleep on a several sharp pointy bits that stick in odd places as you roll around asleep or go without sleeping. I've done both and I can tell you that sleeping on pointy bits is a lot worse, I think the fatigue is actually another way of stating out the pain from a sore body as being actually tired.
mvincent 05-08-07, 04:33 PM	For those that desire the information, the WotC custhelp database (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=999) says: "The rules are silent on not sleeping at all, but based on the penalties you receive from a night of uncomfortable rest (page 122 of the 3.5 Player's Handbook, under Sleeping with Armor Worn) a Dungeon Master could assume that not sleeping at all could have some pretty hefty penalties. One house rule could be that the person becomes exhausted after not sleeping an entire night. But of course, since there are no rules covering this situation, it is ultimately up to the Dungeon Master of your campaign to determine how he/she wants to handle a character who hasn't slept."
mvincent 05-08-07, 04:41 PM	I actually will take you up on that argument, Sleep on a several sharp pointy bits that stick in odd places as you roll around asleep or go without sleeping.Do you genuinely think that you would be able to convince your DM (or fellow players) of this? I've done both and I can tell you that sleeping on pointy bits is a lot worseI've done both also. I would not agree. As mentioned, out of the dozens of people reading this thread, I expected one or two to disagree. You are indeed that special someone. (based on percentages, I reckon there will also be at least one reader who believes their cat talks to them)
ranewen 05-08-07, 07:27 PM	Lack of sleep cannot kill you. Not in real life. You might go totally nuts until you rest, but you will not die. i've read the studies, yes you can die from not getting sleep. your brain needs the rest. it needs down time. eventually the brain will finally cease function and stop functioning altogether, if it's not allowed to rest. ie. sleep deprevation eventually kills
mvincent 05-08-07, 07:34 PM	sleep deprevation eventually killsCorrect. Rat studies have proven this.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-08-07, 08:06 PM	One of the old Ripley's books mentioned a fellow who, because of a head injury, didn't need to (and couldn't) sleep from that point on. He lived to a pretty decent old age and continued working as a lawyer throughout. Of course, a head injury causing that isn't exactly a normal person's experience in going sleepless... Being fatigued after one day and exhausted after the second is probably sufficient. It's not likely that you're going to see characters going for 10+ days without sleep, so I wouldn't worry about what happens then.
tos_shai_hulud 05-08-07, 11:24 PM	Correct. Rat studies have proven this. Wrong. Rat studies have proven that rats die from sleep deprivation. I have never seen a rat with a brain the size of a human's. Rats die after about two weeks without sleep. There are documented cases of humans going up to thirty days without sleep. I am not aware of a study where a human has died from sleep deprivation, but it may be possible. Theoretically, their organs begin to shut down. This is all theory, however, as this form of testing is inhumane and illegal. Current studies have proven nothing about sleep deprivation and humans. Currently, we don't know if a human can live without sleep. It remains a possibility, along with the possibility that organs will begin to shut down. There is a vast different between evidence and proof.
mvincent 05-08-07, 11:48 PM	Wrong. Rat studies have proven that rats die from sleep deprivation.To be fair, I never actually said what died from sleep deprivation (or maybe I did)... merely affirming that sleep deprivation can indeed kill. It's been repeated in other animals as well. I am not aware of a study where a human has died from sleep deprivation, but it may be possible.Look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_familial_insomnia). I have degrees in psych, criminology and military science, and I have every reason to believe that death is possible due to the side effects of sleep deprivation. This is all pretty irrelevant for D&D purposes though.
Pegasos989 05-09-07, 08:30 AM	However, note that most studies are propably on something that would, even when human, be represented as very low-level commoners, warriors or maybe even rogues. And then, it is many weeks or a month. So a mid-level fighter, who can take as much damage as 50 commoners, would die from it in... 50 months? We are talking about something that will practically never come up in actual gaming situation. Even if it was just the month even for them, still... What we need rules is what happens up to one week when PCs need to avoid sleeping totally or have insufficient sleep due to chases, dungeoncrawls or such... I think we all agree that in those times, adventurers being what they are in DnD, would certainly not die? Maybe up to exhausted and some wisdom penalties...
tos_shai_hulud 05-09-07, 09:54 AM	To be fair, I never actually said what died from sleep deprivation (or maybe I did)... merely affirming that sleep deprivation can indeed kill. It's been repeated in other animals as well. Look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_familial_insomnia). I have degrees in psych, criminology and military science, and I have every reason to believe that death is possible due to the side effects of sleep deprivation. This is all pretty irrelevant for D&D purposes though. Look here (http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/viewnews.php?id=61734) for a human who can survive 30 years without sleeping. Perhaps there is more to FFI than insomnia. According to that wikipedia article, FFI has a similar mutation to several serious diseases, including mad cow disease. Perhaps patients are dying from the mutation, not insomnia.
Saberus 05-09-07, 10:47 AM	To be fair, I never actually said what died from sleep deprivation (or maybe I did)... merely affirming that sleep deprivation can indeed kill. It's been repeated in other animals as well. Look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_familial_insomnia). I have degrees in psych, criminology and military science, and I have every reason to believe that death is possible due to the side effects of sleep deprivation. This is all pretty irrelevant for D&D purposes though. I'm not as well educated as you, so I'm not on any grounds to dispute you on a professional level, but I agree w/ Shai Halud: (bolded for emphasis) Look here (http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/viewnews.php?id=61734) for a human who can survive 30 years without sleeping. Perhaps there is more to FFI than insomnia. According to that wikipedia article, FFI has a similar mutation to several serious diseases, including mad cow disease. Perhaps patients are dying from the mutation, not insomnia. From reading the Wiki entry you linked, it would seem that the prions produced are causing degradation of the brain, and like CJD (the human version of Mad Cow, AKA spongiform encephalopathy) it destroys the tissue, causing failure. My ex had Huntington's Chorea, and it produces similar degradation, only mostly on the basal ganglia. It too is fatal and incurable.
calvinNhobbes 05-09-07, 12:23 PM	Please don't cite wikipedia as a source to support a scientific theory. It makes us real scientists cry. :weep: Try using Pubmed instead. My area of expertise is not sleep or even neuroscience, but I have taken grad level classes in human behavior, nueroanatomy, neurophysiology, and neuroscience. I agree with mvincent that sleep deprivation can lead to death in humans just like other animals. It may take longer than a rat, but eventually it will happen. There have been reports of people dying, in China I believe, from marathon gaming sessions. It really is a combination of sleep deprivation, stress, and other underlying pathologies. Each person's sleep requirements are unique. Everyone's gentic code is different. Not everyone gets heart disease or cancer. Some people can tolerate sleep deprivation better than others. The brain is the most metabolically active organ in the body. It requires periodic moments of decreased or altered (I believe data is conflicted in this area) activity to recuperate (ie. sleep). Some people have "tougher" brains than others. EDIT: A comment about Hai Ngoc. He is obviosuly a unique individual, both genetically and with a specific environmental trigger (whatever caused his fever). Altering the metabolic load of the brain for whatever reason could significantly alter the sleep requirements of the individual, even to this "miracle" level.
Kragg Bonemeal 05-09-07, 03:49 PM	Wikipedia is not usable for referencing in a published paper, but it gives good cross-references of its own sometimes... to NIH, CDC, WHO, etc. News article today based on decisions while gambling after low sleep... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18561132/wid/11915773?GT1=10008 Its at least a reputable source.
calvinNhobbes 05-09-07, 04:26 PM	Wikipedia is not usable for referencing in a published paper, but it gives good cross-references of its own sometimes... to NIH, CDC, WHO, etc. News article today based on decisions while gambling after low sleep... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18561132/wid/11915773?GT1=10008 Its at least a reputable source. Yikes! 56 year old grad student! That guy has more problems than just late night gambling! As a scientist, I scrutinize government publications the most of all due to political bias and agenda. The general media is not much better. I have read articles on CNN and MSN on topics directly related to my research that were completely wrong.
Kragg Bonemeal 05-09-07, 04:52 PM	Yikes! 56 year old grad student! That guy has more problems than just late night gambling! As a scientist, I scrutinize government publications the most of all due to political bias and agenda. The general media is not much better. I have read articles on CNN and MSN on topics directly related to my research that were completely wrong. As a scientist, I know what you mean. But that is also the nature of all publications. If you publish something I don't agree with, I tailor an experiment to show how yours was flawed and I make an argument I can support with the data that is different. The CNN/MSN articles are based off of research papers and interviews with publishing authors. Don't always (you can sometimes though) blame the media... they cite the peer reviews that slip through. ***EDIT*** 56 years old... yeah... PhDs are dumb enough... taking 8-10 years to complete college when most of us do it in 4... how do you end up being there 30 years later?????? :)
ranewen 05-09-07, 07:52 PM	***EDIT*** 56 years old... yeah... PhDs are dumb enough... taking 8-10 years to complete college when most of us do it in 4... how do you end up being there 30 years later?????? :) he might not have started grad school until later in life.. it's not to say he started grad school at age 26.
Kragg Bonemeal 05-10-07, 09:43 AM	he might not have started grad school until later in life.. it's not to say he started grad school at age 26. Someone failed their "Sense Humor" roll.