Elemental Spacing Issues? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Elemental Spacing Issues? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Iry
03-17-08, 12:54 AM When considering 3.5 elementals, what is the minimum amount of space an elemental requires? For instance, while an Earth Elemental seems to be a pretty constant mass, a water elemental could feasibly be condensed, while the fire elemental could squeeze down even further, with the Air Elemental theoretically being able to condense an amazing amount.

So, is it possible to fit a Huge Air, Fire, or even Water elemental into a space that cannot contain a huge creature? Would you allow it by default? Would you allow it under the premise that you're in a Medium sized dungeon and the elemental is 'stretched out' (without any mechanical benefit)?
Merestil Haye
03-17-08, 07:05 AM A monster requires the space listed in its description in order to be able to function properly in combat. If the monster can adequately function in a smaller space, the description of the monster will say so explicitly.

Nothing in the Elemental descriptions says any such thing..

Creatures can occupy areas smaller than their space, but then they suffer the penalties of squeezing.
Iry
03-17-08, 11:37 AM A monster requires the space listed in its description in order to be able to function properly in combat. If the monster can adequately function in a smaller space, the description of the monster will say so explicitly.

Nothing in the Elemental descriptions says any such thing..

Creatures can occupy areas smaller than their space, but then they suffer the penalties of squeezing.

Let's use an Elder Air Elemental for the monster in question.

According to the Squeezing Rules, a Huge Air Elemental could squeeze into a 10'x10' area and move 10 squares while receiving a penalty of -4 to Hit and -4 to AC?

So it's reasonable for me to have a 'safe zone' that the party can retreat to that has a 5'x45' passage the elemental could possibly follow, but not mount any attack. It would then open up into a 10'x70' that would give the party a chance to battle it while weakened (But still possessing ample HP)?
Merestil Haye
03-17-08, 12:41 PM Let's use an Elder Air Elemental for the monster in question.

According to the Squeezing Rules, a Huge Air Elemental could squeeze into a 10'x10' area and move 10 squares while receiving a penalty of -4 to Hit and -4 to AC?Yes, that's right. Or could squeeze past a Medium creature in a corridor 15'wide.

Don't forget height - the space is really a cube. A Huge creature would be squeezing down a corridor 20' wide and 10' high, as well.

So it's reasonable for me to have a 'safe zone' that the party can retreat to that has a 5'x45' passage the elemental could possibly follow, but not mount any attack. It would then open up into a 10'x70' that would give the party a chance to battle it while weakened (But still possessing ample HP)?That sounds like a plan, if the party are clever enough to take it.

Of course, unless there's a reason for it to follow, given the difficulty the Elder Elemental will have in getting through a 5' wide corridor (it's a DC30 Escape Artist check, untrained, with +11 to the roll) I'd be inclined to not make the Elemental follow. It'll either take several rounds to succeed, or Take 20 and leave itself open to attacks by the characters for 2 minutes.

ETA : If the party force the monster to fight in terrain of their choosing that disadvantages the monster, that's one thing. If the monster is disadvantaged by the encounter design (ie that wherever the fight occurs the characters will have an easier time of it) then you should reduce the xp earned by the encounter.
Finarin Panjoro
03-17-08, 01:00 PM Be prepared for your party not to think of this, especially against an air elemental. As your OP suggests there is significant confusion on what an air elemental (or other elementals) are composed of. Your players may assume without asking that an air elemental is composed entirely of air and would not be hampered by confined spaces.
weasel0
03-17-08, 10:36 PM lol. So elementals are nothing more than themed swarms of varying size and make-up!! :lol
mvincent
03-18-08, 03:20 PM lol. So elementals are nothing more than themed swarms of varying size and make-up!! :lolInteresting concept. I'd actually be pretty happy if D&D did handle them as swarms.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iry 03-17-08, 12:54 AM	When considering 3.5 elementals, what is the minimum amount of space an elemental requires? For instance, while an Earth Elemental seems to be a pretty constant mass, a water elemental could feasibly be condensed, while the fire elemental could squeeze down even further, with the Air Elemental theoretically being able to condense an amazing amount. So, is it possible to fit a Huge Air, Fire, or even Water elemental into a space that cannot contain a huge creature? Would you allow it by default? Would you allow it under the premise that you're in a Medium sized dungeon and the elemental is 'stretched out' (without any mechanical benefit)?
Merestil Haye 03-17-08, 07:05 AM	A monster requires the space listed in its description in order to be able to function properly in combat. If the monster can adequately function in a smaller space, the description of the monster will say so explicitly. Nothing in the Elemental descriptions says any such thing.. Creatures can occupy areas smaller than their space, but then they suffer the penalties of squeezing.
Iry 03-17-08, 11:37 AM	A monster requires the space listed in its description in order to be able to function properly in combat. If the monster can adequately function in a smaller space, the description of the monster will say so explicitly. Nothing in the Elemental descriptions says any such thing.. Creatures can occupy areas smaller than their space, but then they suffer the penalties of squeezing. Let's use an Elder Air Elemental for the monster in question. According to the Squeezing Rules, a Huge Air Elemental could squeeze into a 10'x10' area and move 10 squares while receiving a penalty of -4 to Hit and -4 to AC? So it's reasonable for me to have a 'safe zone' that the party can retreat to that has a 5'x45' passage the elemental could possibly follow, but not mount any attack. It would then open up into a 10'x70' that would give the party a chance to battle it while weakened (But still possessing ample HP)?
Merestil Haye 03-17-08, 12:41 PM	Let's use an Elder Air Elemental for the monster in question. According to the Squeezing Rules, a Huge Air Elemental could squeeze into a 10'x10' area and move 10 squares while receiving a penalty of -4 to Hit and -4 to AC?Yes, that's right. Or could squeeze past a Medium creature in a corridor 15'wide. Don't forget height - the space is really a cube. A Huge creature would be squeezing down a corridor 20' wide and 10' high, as well. So it's reasonable for me to have a 'safe zone' that the party can retreat to that has a 5'x45' passage the elemental could possibly follow, but not mount any attack. It would then open up into a 10'x70' that would give the party a chance to battle it while weakened (But still possessing ample HP)?That sounds like a plan, if the party are clever enough to take it. Of course, unless there's a reason for it to follow, given the difficulty the Elder Elemental will have in getting through a 5' wide corridor (it's a DC30 Escape Artist check, untrained, with +11 to the roll) I'd be inclined to not make the Elemental follow. It'll either take several rounds to succeed, or Take 20 and leave itself open to attacks by the characters for 2 minutes. ETA : If the party force the monster to fight in terrain of their choosing that disadvantages the monster, that's one thing. If the monster is disadvantaged by the encounter design (ie that wherever the fight occurs the characters will have an easier time of it) then you should reduce the xp earned by the encounter.
Finarin Panjoro 03-17-08, 01:00 PM	Be prepared for your party not to think of this, especially against an air elemental. As your OP suggests there is significant confusion on what an air elemental (or other elementals) are composed of. Your players may assume without asking that an air elemental is composed entirely of air and would not be hampered by confined spaces.
weasel0 03-17-08, 10:36 PM	lol. So elementals are nothing more than themed swarms of varying size and make-up!! :lol
mvincent 03-18-08, 03:20 PM	lol. So elementals are nothing more than themed swarms of varying size and make-up!! :lolInteresting concept. I'd actually be pretty happy if D&D did handle them as swarms.