enchantments save while knocked out [Archive] - Wizards Community

enchantments save while knocked out [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
itsonlyme
10-21-07, 09:32 PM Can you make will saves while knocked unconscious? As in if you were unconscious due to nonlethal damage and a caster casts charm person on you can you resist it? If so then how do you while unconscious differentiate between a will save for a cleric healing you and a charm spell? Also does spell resistance apply in either case?
Marcus Majarra
10-22-07, 12:00 AM You are always entitled to saving throws, unless otherwise stated. Being unconscious is particular in one aspect: if a spell requires a willing target, being unconscious means you're willing to subject yourself to the effect. For example, teleport allows you to teleport yourself and other willing creatures. You could knock out your opponent, and use this spell to bring him to a location of your choice.

You should note that spells requiring willing targets don't allow for saves. If a spell allows for a saving throw, it'll most likely not require willing targets.

Spell resistance always applies, whether you're conscious or not. Similarly, I haven't seen a spell that requires a willing target that allows for spell resistance.
mvincent
10-22-07, 12:37 PM Can you make will saves while knocked unconscious?Yup (in fact, you are even allowed reflex saves while unconscious... albeit at a penalty)

if you were unconscious due to nonlethal damage and a caster casts charm person on you can you resist it?Yes

If so then how do you while unconscious differentiate between a will save for a cleric healing you and a charm spell?The healing spells are "harmless" (assuming you're not undead or something), so you have to "desire" to make a will save against them:
"(harmless)
The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires. "

Some DM's allow you to have such a desire while unconscious, some don't, but either way the "harmless" spells wouldn't be hindered by a save, while the non-harmless ones would be.

Also does spell resistance apply in either case?SR applies in both cases, since the rules say:
"A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by a spell noted as harmless."
itsonlyme
10-22-07, 03:37 PM So while unconscious u are a willing creature but u still will stuff not to happen to you through will saves? Also unconscious says you're helpless doesn't it say somewhere you don't get reflex saves while helpless?
mvincent
10-22-07, 03:57 PM So while unconscious u are a willing creatureYes. Exactly. While unconscious you are considered a willing creature for targeting purposes only.

but u still will stuff not to happen to you through will saves?You can definitely make saves while unconscious. Whether a DM allows you to 'decide' to save vs. a 'harmless' (or not-save vs. a 'harmful') spell is up to him though.

doesn't it say somewhere you don't get reflex saves while helpless?It implies it in the evasion description (because evasion cannot be used while helpless). However, the off-hand reference in evasion doesn't actually constitute rules for all reflex saves. In D&D, even inanimate, unattended magical items are allowed reflex saves.
Marcus Majarra
10-22-07, 05:25 PM So while unconscious u are a willing creature but u still will stuff not to happen to you through will saves? Also unconscious says you're helpless doesn't it say somewhere you don't get reflex saves while helpless?
Being a willing creature in no way affects whatever saving throws you might be entitled to. In fact, you always make your saving throws, although you can willingly fail to make a saving throw. Willingly failing a saving throw and willingly subjecting you to a spell are two different things. Being unconscious means that you willingly subject yourself to a spell that requires willing subjects.

Also, you're always entitled to your Reflex save, even when helpless. Keep in mind, however, that your Dexterity score is 0 while helpless. This entails a considerable penalty on the save.
weasel0
10-22-07, 08:43 PM DEX 0 => Ref = (DEX)-5 +(base save)x +(misc mods)y
deathbane
10-24-07, 08:10 AM I was wrong

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
itsonlyme 10-21-07, 09:32 PM	Can you make will saves while knocked unconscious? As in if you were unconscious due to nonlethal damage and a caster casts charm person on you can you resist it? If so then how do you while unconscious differentiate between a will save for a cleric healing you and a charm spell? Also does spell resistance apply in either case?
Marcus Majarra 10-22-07, 12:00 AM	You are always entitled to saving throws, unless otherwise stated. Being unconscious is particular in one aspect: if a spell requires a willing target, being unconscious means you're willing to subject yourself to the effect. For example, teleport allows you to teleport yourself and other willing creatures. You could knock out your opponent, and use this spell to bring him to a location of your choice. You should note that spells requiring willing targets don't allow for saves. If a spell allows for a saving throw, it'll most likely not require willing targets. Spell resistance always applies, whether you're conscious or not. Similarly, I haven't seen a spell that requires a willing target that allows for spell resistance.
mvincent 10-22-07, 12:37 PM	Can you make will saves while knocked unconscious?Yup (in fact, you are even allowed reflex saves while unconscious... albeit at a penalty) if you were unconscious due to nonlethal damage and a caster casts charm person on you can you resist it?Yes If so then how do you while unconscious differentiate between a will save for a cleric healing you and a charm spell?The healing spells are "harmless" (assuming you're not undead or something), so you have to "desire" to make a will save against them: "(harmless) The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires. " Some DM's allow you to have such a desire while unconscious, some don't, but either way the "harmless" spells wouldn't be hindered by a save, while the non-harmless ones would be. Also does spell resistance apply in either case?SR applies in both cases, since the rules say: "A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by a spell noted as harmless."
itsonlyme 10-22-07, 03:37 PM	So while unconscious u are a willing creature but u still will stuff not to happen to you through will saves? Also unconscious says you're helpless doesn't it say somewhere you don't get reflex saves while helpless?
mvincent 10-22-07, 03:57 PM	So while unconscious u are a willing creatureYes. Exactly. While unconscious you are considered a willing creature for targeting purposes only. but u still will stuff not to happen to you through will saves?You can definitely make saves while unconscious. Whether a DM allows you to 'decide' to save vs. a 'harmless' (or not-save vs. a 'harmful') spell is up to him though. doesn't it say somewhere you don't get reflex saves while helpless?It implies it in the evasion description (because evasion cannot be used while helpless). However, the off-hand reference in evasion doesn't actually constitute rules for all reflex saves. In D&D, even inanimate, unattended magical items are allowed reflex saves.
Marcus Majarra 10-22-07, 05:25 PM	So while unconscious u are a willing creature but u still will stuff not to happen to you through will saves? Also unconscious says you're helpless doesn't it say somewhere you don't get reflex saves while helpless? Being a willing creature in no way affects whatever saving throws you might be entitled to. In fact, you always make your saving throws, although you can willingly fail to make a saving throw. Willingly failing a saving throw and willingly subjecting you to a spell are two different things. Being unconscious means that you willingly subject yourself to a spell that requires willing subjects. Also, you're always entitled to your Reflex save, even when helpless. Keep in mind, however, that your Dexterity score is 0 while helpless. This entails a considerable penalty on the save.
weasel0 10-22-07, 08:43 PM	DEX 0 => Ref = (DEX)-5 +(base save)x +(misc mods)y
deathbane 10-24-07, 08:10 AM	I was wrong