Encounters & Wealth [Archive] - Wizards Community

Encounters & Wealth [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Romtos
05-24-07, 11:06 AM I'm a bit lost here.
If you design a NPC encounter, he gets wealth according to the NPC-wealth table in the DMG. However, is this based on CL, ECL or CR (the last seems unlikely). And what about monsters without class levels? Some dó have a weapon, like the Ettin. Is this a 'neglegtible' amount of wealth?
Light_Colonel
05-24-07, 11:36 AM I'm a bit lost here.
If you design a NPC encounter, he gets wealth according to the NPC-wealth table in the DMG. However, is this based on CL, ECL or CR (the last seems unlikely).

It is based upon his ECL. I believe that is listed in the MM in the back about giving monsters class levels, though I believe the DMG also mentions it as well.

And what about monsters without class levels? Some dó have a weapon, like the Ettin. Is this a 'neglegtible' amount of wealth?

Yes it is negligable wealth generally. In most cases, a monster with treasure will list the really expensive stuff in it's treasure entry (e.g. Double Standard plus a +5 Vorpal Greatsword); same if the monster is extremely poor (e.g. Nothing except a normal Greatsword); sometimes the listing will also say exactly what the monster has, every time (e.g. Masterwork Sword and Shield only).

Generally speaking, the weapons and armor a monster is equipped with do not count against the treasure they have; typically they are monsters that would otherwise be provoking attacks of opportunity without them or would have truly laughable ACs.

For the sake of fairness however, when I level up an NPC Monster, I will usually keep the "free" equipment, unless I use the treasure/gear total to buy him new equipment, in which case I toss the old item and do not replace the gold cost of the item. In the case of a monster that comes book standard with say, a +1 longsword however, I would in most situations pay only the "upgrade" cost to make it a +2 or higher weapon.
Romtos
05-24-07, 11:43 AM I see. Thanks for this information, this makes it clear. I also like the tip about the upgrading. I doubted because it seemed unfair that high LA templates gave monsters so much wealth (but that's more a DM's call).
Light_Colonel
05-24-07, 12:04 PM Yeah, it can make for ridiculously overpowered situations. As an example, we did a "Monster Battle" a few weeks ago; the limitations to the fight were "a CR8 monster".

I chose a Briarvax from MM4. Now it by itself is a CR5 monster with I think 5 HD. I then gave a few more HD by advancing its HD, however it can also advance by class level, so I gave it 4 levels of Warrior. (When adding class levels to monsters, NPC classes only count as 1/2 CR as do "unrelated classes"; like adding Wizard levels to a "fighter"-type monster.

So anyway, I read and re-read the rules for equiping him. It says use the ECL, adding the racial HD, level HD and LA. Which in this case adds up to 8 (5 base plus the 3 I bought for +1 CR)+4 (Warrior levels)+ 5 LA = equipment of a 17th level NPC.

You can bet that my Monster was the only one in magical full-plate and carrying potions of Invisibility. :D
Romtos
05-24-07, 01:51 PM Don't NPC classes count as 1 ECL lower than they actually are? (Don't know the source, but I seem to remember something like that).

And indeed, that's a nice way to win such a battle. :D
I did something like that, but we did a free for all, while waiting for the rest of the group. So they're all level 17, and I'm the DM, so I take a CR 17 monster to join the fun. I didn't stand a change.
Light_Colonel
05-24-07, 02:32 PM Don't NPC classes count as 1 ECL lower than they actually are? (Don't know the source, but I seem to remember something like that).

Nope. At least not according to the MM they don't. At least when adding class levels to monsters. Each NPC class adds 1/2 CR per level. The same with unassociated class levels, up to the monsters original HD anyway. So as a for example:

Here is a monster, we will call it the Beefinator. The Beefinator is a heavily melee oriented monster that has huge bonuses to melee combat, awesome stats for melee (High CON and STR) and is all-around good at squishing stuff with it's great-axe. We will say for the purposes of our example that a standard Beefinator is CR 6 with 10 HD and advances by character class.

Now we design our encounter. It will be an "adventuring party" of Beefinators, four of them in fact, that we will stat out a little here:

Beefinator A is the party Cleric. Since the Beefinator is good at front line bashin'-style combat, Caster classes are considered non-associated for it. So, we are designing this encounter as a very high level fight, so we will give this guy 15 levels of Cleric.

What happens now? Well, His Hit Dice just went from 10 to 10dX+15d8, his CR however only goes up a little bit. The Cleric levels count at 1/2 CR up to his original HD, so the first 10 levels of Cleric only add 5 CR. After that though, the Cleric levels become associated, meaning they add their full value per level, so that adds another 5 CR, for a total CR of 16 (6 base +5 {10 non-associated class levels} +5 {5 associated class levels}); not bad for a 25 HD monster with the casting power of a 15th level Cleric.

Let's look at NPC classes:

Beefinator B is the backup Caster; he has a whopping 20 levels of Adept. This means he has a total of 30 Hit Dice, a CR of 16 (6 base + 10 NPC levels). Remember that NPC class levels always add 1/2.

I should note that when I talk of NPC classes I refer specifically to Adept, Commoner, Aristocrat, Warrior and Expert.

Beefinator C is the Party leader, he is the best fighter in the group. Or is he? He has 10 levels of Fighter, clearly an associated class for the Beefinator race. So each level adds a full 1 CR. This means the leader has a meager 20 HD and is CR 16, though compared to everyone else he has the lowest Hit Dice. Fortunately he will be getting lots of Fighter feats to compensate a little.

Finally Beefinator D, the really best warrior in the group. He has 10 levels of Rogue (Beefinators, not known for their sneakiness, this is a non-associated class) and 10 levels of Warrior. This gives him a total CR of 16 just like everyone else, but 30 Hit Dice.

Calculating the Equipment for all them is fairly easy. Assuming they have a Level Adjustment of 5, A gets the NPC equipment for a 30th level NPC, B gets 35th level, C gets 25th level and D gets 35th level as well.
mvincent
05-24-07, 03:08 PM I'm a bit lost here.
If you design a NPC encounter, he gets wealth according to the NPC-wealth table in the DMG. However, is this based on CL, ECL or CRNPC-wealth is based on their character level (not ECL, as that could result in say, a giant with a single barbarian level becoming extremely wealthy).
Light_Colonel
05-24-07, 03:36 PM NPC-wealth is based on their character level (not ECL, as that could result in say, a giant with a single barbarian level becoming extremely wealthy).

I beg to disagree mvincent. If you check the back your Monster Manual Core 3.5, in the Improving Monsters section, you will find a section regarding adding classes to Monsters and how you calculate their wealth. You will find it is exactly how I explained above.

If it were based on character level it would be even more unbalanced in the direction of not giving a monster the equipment it needs to have.
mvincent
05-24-07, 04:22 PM I beg to disagree mvincent.Yeah, I assumed someone would (giving me a chance to pounce and thus show off mad geek skilz ;)). Sorry for the ambush (and actually, I respect the fact that you knew about the MM rule):

From the DMG (page 51), Monsters With Classes:
"...first give them equipment. Use Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value (page 127) and use just their class levels to determine the value of their equipment. Then generate their treasure according to their monster entry..."

For reasons given above*, this has precedence over the MM entry. The topic has been conclusively discussed before (here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10770533), here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11728126), and here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3167993)).

* Example: giving a fire giant a level of barbarian isn't unusual, but then giving him the starting wealth of a 20th level NPC (because of that level)... well, that's a problem for a CR11 encounter (both for the party, and for the DM if the party acquires all that wealth)

Now: PC's should have wealth based off of ECL, but not NPCs.
Morwen
05-24-07, 08:16 PM I see. Thanks for this information, this makes it clear. I also like the tip about the upgrading. I doubted because it seemed unfair that high LA templates gave monsters so much wealth (but that's more a DM's call).

High-LA templates do nothing for monsters. LA is solely for PCs.

Monster and NPC treasure are based on Challenge Rating.
Light_Colonel
05-25-07, 08:08 AM Hrrm, well I stand, or rather sit corrected. I was unaware of the previous discussion on the topic, so I will go with the "Ignorance" excuse. :)

Still, the other thread does clearly indicate that I was right... that it does *say* in the MM that it is based on ECL. :)

Just that that is apparently wrong. :(

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Romtos 05-24-07, 11:06 AM	I'm a bit lost here. If you design a NPC encounter, he gets wealth according to the NPC-wealth table in the DMG. However, is this based on CL, ECL or CR (the last seems unlikely). And what about monsters without class levels? Some dó have a weapon, like the Ettin. Is this a 'neglegtible' amount of wealth?
Light_Colonel 05-24-07, 11:36 AM	I'm a bit lost here. If you design a NPC encounter, he gets wealth according to the NPC-wealth table in the DMG. However, is this based on CL, ECL or CR (the last seems unlikely). It is based upon his ECL. I believe that is listed in the MM in the back about giving monsters class levels, though I believe the DMG also mentions it as well. And what about monsters without class levels? Some dó have a weapon, like the Ettin. Is this a 'neglegtible' amount of wealth? Yes it is negligable wealth generally. In most cases, a monster with treasure will list the really expensive stuff in it's treasure entry (e.g. Double Standard plus a +5 Vorpal Greatsword); same if the monster is extremely poor (e.g. Nothing except a normal Greatsword); sometimes the listing will also say exactly what the monster has, every time (e.g. Masterwork Sword and Shield only). Generally speaking, the weapons and armor a monster is equipped with do not count against the treasure they have; typically they are monsters that would otherwise be provoking attacks of opportunity without them or would have truly laughable ACs. For the sake of fairness however, when I level up an NPC Monster, I will usually keep the "free" equipment, unless I use the treasure/gear total to buy him new equipment, in which case I toss the old item and do not replace the gold cost of the item. In the case of a monster that comes book standard with say, a +1 longsword however, I would in most situations pay only the "upgrade" cost to make it a +2 or higher weapon.
Romtos 05-24-07, 11:43 AM	I see. Thanks for this information, this makes it clear. I also like the tip about the upgrading. I doubted because it seemed unfair that high LA templates gave monsters so much wealth (but that's more a DM's call).
Light_Colonel 05-24-07, 12:04 PM	Yeah, it can make for ridiculously overpowered situations. As an example, we did a "Monster Battle" a few weeks ago; the limitations to the fight were "a CR8 monster". I chose a Briarvax from MM4. Now it by itself is a CR5 monster with I think 5 HD. I then gave a few more HD by advancing its HD, however it can also advance by class level, so I gave it 4 levels of Warrior. (When adding class levels to monsters, NPC classes only count as 1/2 CR as do "unrelated classes"; like adding Wizard levels to a "fighter"-type monster. So anyway, I read and re-read the rules for equiping him. It says use the ECL, adding the racial HD, level HD and LA. Which in this case adds up to 8 (5 base plus the 3 I bought for +1 CR)+4 (Warrior levels)+ 5 LA = equipment of a 17th level NPC. You can bet that my Monster was the only one in magical full-plate and carrying potions of Invisibility. :D
Romtos 05-24-07, 01:51 PM	Don't NPC classes count as 1 ECL lower than they actually are? (Don't know the source, but I seem to remember something like that). And indeed, that's a nice way to win such a battle. :D I did something like that, but we did a free for all, while waiting for the rest of the group. So they're all level 17, and I'm the DM, so I take a CR 17 monster to join the fun. I didn't stand a change.
Light_Colonel 05-24-07, 02:32 PM	Don't NPC classes count as 1 ECL lower than they actually are? (Don't know the source, but I seem to remember something like that). Nope. At least not according to the MM they don't. At least when adding class levels to monsters. Each NPC class adds 1/2 CR per level. The same with unassociated class levels, up to the monsters original HD anyway. So as a for example: Here is a monster, we will call it the Beefinator. The Beefinator is a heavily melee oriented monster that has huge bonuses to melee combat, awesome stats for melee (High CON and STR) and is all-around good at squishing stuff with it's great-axe. We will say for the purposes of our example that a standard Beefinator is CR 6 with 10 HD and advances by character class. Now we design our encounter. It will be an "adventuring party" of Beefinators, four of them in fact, that we will stat out a little here: Beefinator A is the party Cleric. Since the Beefinator is good at front line bashin'-style combat, Caster classes are considered non-associated for it. So, we are designing this encounter as a very high level fight, so we will give this guy 15 levels of Cleric. What happens now? Well, His Hit Dice just went from 10 to 10dX+15d8, his CR however only goes up a little bit. The Cleric levels count at 1/2 CR up to his original HD, so the first 10 levels of Cleric only add 5 CR. After that though, the Cleric levels become associated, meaning they add their full value per level, so that adds another 5 CR, for a total CR of 16 (6 base +5 {10 non-associated class levels} +5 {5 associated class levels}); not bad for a 25 HD monster with the casting power of a 15th level Cleric. Let's look at NPC classes: Beefinator B is the backup Caster; he has a whopping 20 levels of Adept. This means he has a total of 30 Hit Dice, a CR of 16 (6 base + 10 NPC levels). Remember that NPC class levels always add 1/2. I should note that when I talk of NPC classes I refer specifically to Adept, Commoner, Aristocrat, Warrior and Expert. Beefinator C is the Party leader, he is the best fighter in the group. Or is he? He has 10 levels of Fighter, clearly an associated class for the Beefinator race. So each level adds a full 1 CR. This means the leader has a meager 20 HD and is CR 16, though compared to everyone else he has the lowest Hit Dice. Fortunately he will be getting lots of Fighter feats to compensate a little. Finally Beefinator D, the really best warrior in the group. He has 10 levels of Rogue (Beefinators, not known for their sneakiness, this is a non-associated class) and 10 levels of Warrior. This gives him a total CR of 16 just like everyone else, but 30 Hit Dice. Calculating the Equipment for all them is fairly easy. Assuming they have a Level Adjustment of 5, A gets the NPC equipment for a 30th level NPC, B gets 35th level, C gets 25th level and D gets 35th level as well.
mvincent 05-24-07, 03:08 PM	I'm a bit lost here. If you design a NPC encounter, he gets wealth according to the NPC-wealth table in the DMG. However, is this based on CL, ECL or CRNPC-wealth is based on their character level (not ECL, as that could result in say, a giant with a single barbarian level becoming extremely wealthy).
Light_Colonel 05-24-07, 03:36 PM	NPC-wealth is based on their character level (not ECL, as that could result in say, a giant with a single barbarian level becoming extremely wealthy). I beg to disagree mvincent. If you check the back your Monster Manual Core 3.5, in the Improving Monsters section, you will find a section regarding adding classes to Monsters and how you calculate their wealth. You will find it is exactly how I explained above. If it were based on character level it would be even more unbalanced in the direction of not giving a monster the equipment it needs to have.
mvincent 05-24-07, 04:22 PM	I beg to disagree mvincent.Yeah, I assumed someone would (giving me a chance to pounce and thus show off mad geek skilz ;)). Sorry for the ambush (and actually, I respect the fact that you knew about the MM rule): From the DMG (page 51), Monsters With Classes: "...first give them equipment. Use Table 4-23: NPC Gear Value (page 127) and use just their class levels to determine the value of their equipment. Then generate their treasure according to their monster entry..." For reasons given above, this has precedence over the MM entry. The topic has been conclusively discussed before (here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10770533), here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11728126), and here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3167993)). Example: giving a fire giant a level of barbarian isn't unusual, but then giving him the starting wealth of a 20th level NPC (because of that level)... well, that's a problem for a CR11 encounter (both for the party, and for the DM if the party acquires all that wealth) Now: PC's should have wealth based off of ECL, but not NPCs.
Morwen 05-24-07, 08:16 PM	I see. Thanks for this information, this makes it clear. I also like the tip about the upgrading. I doubted because it seemed unfair that high LA templates gave monsters so much wealth (but that's more a DM's call). High-LA templates do nothing for monsters. LA is solely for PCs. Monster and NPC treasure are based on Challenge Rating.
Light_Colonel 05-25-07, 08:08 AM	Hrrm, well I stand, or rather sit corrected. I was unaware of the previous discussion on the topic, so I will go with the "Ignorance" excuse. :) Still, the other thread does clearly indicate that I was right... that it does say in the MM that it is based on ECL. :) Just that that is apparently wrong. :(