Encumbrance and armor restrictions... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Encumbrance and armor restrictions... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
catsclaw
04-06-07, 04:51 PM This has come up on an LG mailing list, and I started a thread over on the LG rules board, where I was amazed to find a disagreement on the most basic points in the rules. I submitted the following question to Customer Support (mostly out of curiosity). I thought I'd repost it here, just to see what people thought.

-------

The section on encumbrance states "A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor". Many of the class abilities listed explicitly say they are restricted by load as well as armor (such as barbarian fast movement, which states "This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load").

However, there are abilities like rogue evasion, a ranger's fighting style, and the spring attack feat, which are restricted by armor but do not explicitly say they are restricted by load. Does the sentence in the section on encumbrance apply to them as well (e.g., is a rogue prevented from using evasion if carrying a heavy load?)

If so, the monk's evasion ability is phrased the same way as the rogue's evasion ability. However, under "armor" for the monk it says "When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities." Does this allow the monk's evasion ability to work while carrying a heavy load?

Finally, under the bard armor listing, it says "A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance." Is this an ability which is "restricted by armor"? In other words, can a bard ignore arcane spell failure chance while carrying a heavy load?
Perseus_Stoned
04-06-07, 05:04 PM *cracks knuckles* Well lemme take a look at it...

It seems like most of these abilities are come as you are- that is they all have to be looked at individually. You are correct in that the rules seem to contradict themselves here, but the spirit of the rules can be found rather easily.

For instance:
Fast Movement (Ex)

A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.
Indicates clearly that a light or medium load would not prevent this ability from being used, despite what:
A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor
has to say.

However, there are exceptions.
Evasion (Ex)

At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
This would not allow a medium or heavy load, as per the statement on weight. If it does not indicate clearly (through addressing both weight and armor) which stance it has taken, then it can be assumed the weight article applies. If it addresses both weight and armor, then it does not.

Therefore:
(e.g., is a rogue prevented from using evasion if carrying a heavy load?)
Yes.

If so, the monk's evasion ability is phrased the same way as the rogue's evasion ability. However, under "armor" for the monk it says "When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities." Does this allow the monk's evasion ability to work while carrying a heavy load?

No, because under "armor" it only addresses the way armor influences the monk's abilities, not the weight.

Finally, under the bard armor listing, it says "A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance." Is this an ability which is "restricted by armor"? In other words, can a bard ignore arcane spell failure chance while carrying a heavy load?

Yes, because as established by rules already encumbrance (at least assuming reasonable encumbrance) does not affect spellcasting. While an ability, the armor is already listed to interfere with spellcasting, but loads are not.

While truly some poor phrasing on the designer's part, I believe the spirit of the rules can still be interpreted correctly (and hopefully I did as such).
Nom
04-07-07, 02:40 AM Nitpick:Indicates clearly that a light or medium load would not prevent this ability from being used, despite what ... has to say.Uh, actually that quote wouldn't cause problems. If a medium load does count as medium armour, it's still allowed because the barbarian is allowed medium armour.
Perseus_Stoned
04-07-07, 02:42 AM Nitpick:Uh, actually that quote wouldn't cause problems. If a medium load does count as medium armour, it's still allowed because the barbarian is allowed medium armour.

True, but the OP had asked that specific question, so I answered (perhaps clumsily).
catsclaw
04-07-07, 09:51 AM I got a response from Customer Service on these questions. In their opinion, load doesn't affect any of these abilities.When looking at the restrictions for armor and encumbrance you are going to want to look at each ability individually to see how it is effected, abilities like spring attack and the ranger ability the rogues evasion ability are not effected by the amount that you are carrying, just your armor.I'm 98% sure CustServ is wrong.True, but the OP had asked that specific question, so I answered (perhaps clumsily).Actually, I was using the Barbarian example to show that there are many abilities which specify they're restricted by load and armor. Maybe people seem to feel (like CustServ above) that if the original ability doesn't specify it's restricted by load, that it's not. I think that's crazy -- if so, you could just delete the sentence in encumbrance about medium and heavy loads counting as medium and heavy armor. Since the designers didn't, they must have intended it to mean something.Yes, because as established by rules already encumbrance (at least assuming reasonable encumbrance) does not affect spellcasting. While an ability, the armor is already listed to interfere with spellcasting, but loads are not.This is the only point where I disagree with you. The bards ability says they can ignore ASF while wearing light armor. The ability to ignore ASF while wearing light armor is an ability which is restricted by armor. Carrying a medium load counts as wearing medium armor for those abilities. Therefore, while carrying a medium load the bard is treated as if wearing medium armor, and the bard cannot ignore ASF. This may or may not be what the designers intended, but it's what they wrote.
Someone
04-07-07, 01:06 PM You use the worse of either encumbrance by armor or weight. Fortunately, a medium or heavy load has no listed ASF %, so I'd say the bard example wouldn't suffers ASF, as its between the 0% for weight or the effectively 0% of the light armor.

As for evasion and monk/ranger abilities, I'd say they are restricted, from a "only when unencumbered" point of view. A medium or heavy load encumbers you, and in the case of the monk, even light armor is considered encumbering (though not a light load, as there is no "no load" category). You simply cannot use those special abilities while encumbered.
tos_shai_hulud
04-07-07, 01:31 PM You use the worse of either encumbrance by armor or weight. Fortunately, a medium or heavy load has no listed ASF %, so I'd say the bard example wouldn't suffers ASF, as its between the 0% for weight or the effectively 0% of the light armor.

As for evasion and monk/ranger abilities, I'd say they are restricted, from a "only when unencumbered" point of view. A medium or heavy load encumbers you, and in the case of the monk, even light armor is considered encumbering (though not a light load, as there is no "no load" category). You simply cannot use those special abilities while encumbered.

I believe the point that he was making is that while he is wearing only light armor, he ignores ASF. When he is carrying a medium load, he is treated as wearing medium armor (according to the rules listed). Since he is considered to be wearing medium armor, he cannot ignore his armor spell failure (not the armor spell failure of his light armor, but his armor spell failure of all of his items) which amounts to the ASF of whatever armor he is wearing. I agree that the way it is worded, that would be the case, although it probably was not the way it was intended.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
catsclaw 04-06-07, 04:51 PM	This has come up on an LG mailing list, and I started a thread over on the LG rules board, where I was amazed to find a disagreement on the most basic points in the rules. I submitted the following question to Customer Support (mostly out of curiosity). I thought I'd repost it here, just to see what people thought. ------- The section on encumbrance states "A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor". Many of the class abilities listed explicitly say they are restricted by load as well as armor (such as barbarian fast movement, which states "This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load"). However, there are abilities like rogue evasion, a ranger's fighting style, and the spring attack feat, which are restricted by armor but do not explicitly say they are restricted by load. Does the sentence in the section on encumbrance apply to them as well (e.g., is a rogue prevented from using evasion if carrying a heavy load?) If so, the monk's evasion ability is phrased the same way as the rogue's evasion ability. However, under "armor" for the monk it says "When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities." Does this allow the monk's evasion ability to work while carrying a heavy load? Finally, under the bard armor listing, it says "A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance." Is this an ability which is "restricted by armor"? In other words, can a bard ignore arcane spell failure chance while carrying a heavy load?
Perseus_Stoned 04-06-07, 05:04 PM	cracks knuckles Well lemme take a look at it... It seems like most of these abilities are come as you are- that is they all have to be looked at individually. You are correct in that the rules seem to contradict themselves here, but the spirit of the rules can be found rather easily. For instance: Fast Movement (Ex) A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. Indicates clearly that a light or medium load would not prevent this ability from being used, despite what: A medium or heavy load counts as medium or heavy armor for the purpose of abilities or skills that are restricted by armor has to say. However, there are exceptions. Evasion (Ex) At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion. This would not allow a medium or heavy load, as per the statement on weight. If it does not indicate clearly (through addressing both weight and armor) which stance it has taken, then it can be assumed the weight article applies. If it addresses both weight and armor, then it does not. Therefore: (e.g., is a rogue prevented from using evasion if carrying a heavy load?) Yes. If so, the monk's evasion ability is phrased the same way as the rogue's evasion ability. However, under "armor" for the monk it says "When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities." Does this allow the monk's evasion ability to work while carrying a heavy load? No, because under "armor" it only addresses the way armor influences the monk's abilities, not the weight. Finally, under the bard armor listing, it says "A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance." Is this an ability which is "restricted by armor"? In other words, can a bard ignore arcane spell failure chance while carrying a heavy load? Yes, because as established by rules already encumbrance (at least assuming reasonable encumbrance) does not affect spellcasting. While an ability, the armor is already listed to interfere with spellcasting, but loads are not. While truly some poor phrasing on the designer's part, I believe the spirit of the rules can still be interpreted correctly (and hopefully I did as such).
Nom 04-07-07, 02:40 AM	Nitpick:Indicates clearly that a light or medium load would not prevent this ability from being used, despite what ... has to say.Uh, actually that quote wouldn't cause problems. If a medium load does count as medium armour, it's still allowed because the barbarian is allowed medium armour.
Perseus_Stoned 04-07-07, 02:42 AM	Nitpick:Uh, actually that quote wouldn't cause problems. If a medium load does count as medium armour, it's still allowed because the barbarian is allowed medium armour. True, but the OP had asked that specific question, so I answered (perhaps clumsily).
catsclaw 04-07-07, 09:51 AM	I got a response from Customer Service on these questions. In their opinion, load doesn't affect any of these abilities.When looking at the restrictions for armor and encumbrance you are going to want to look at each ability individually to see how it is effected, abilities like spring attack and the ranger ability the rogues evasion ability are not effected by the amount that you are carrying, just your armor.I'm 98% sure CustServ is wrong.True, but the OP had asked that specific question, so I answered (perhaps clumsily).Actually, I was using the Barbarian example to show that there are many abilities which specify they're restricted by load and armor. Maybe people seem to feel (like CustServ above) that if the original ability doesn't specify it's restricted by load, that it's not. I think that's crazy -- if so, you could just delete the sentence in encumbrance about medium and heavy loads counting as medium and heavy armor. Since the designers didn't, they must have intended it to mean something.Yes, because as established by rules already encumbrance (at least assuming reasonable encumbrance) does not affect spellcasting. While an ability, the armor is already listed to interfere with spellcasting, but loads are not.This is the only point where I disagree with you. The bards ability says they can ignore ASF while wearing light armor. The ability to ignore ASF while wearing light armor is an ability which is restricted by armor. Carrying a medium load counts as wearing medium armor for those abilities. Therefore, while carrying a medium load the bard is treated as if wearing medium armor, and the bard cannot ignore ASF. This may or may not be what the designers intended, but it's what they wrote.
Someone 04-07-07, 01:06 PM	You use the worse of either encumbrance by armor or weight. Fortunately, a medium or heavy load has no listed ASF %, so I'd say the bard example wouldn't suffers ASF, as its between the 0% for weight or the effectively 0% of the light armor. As for evasion and monk/ranger abilities, I'd say they are restricted, from a "only when unencumbered" point of view. A medium or heavy load encumbers you, and in the case of the monk, even light armor is considered encumbering (though not a light load, as there is no "no load" category). You simply cannot use those special abilities while encumbered.
tos_shai_hulud 04-07-07, 01:31 PM	You use the worse of either encumbrance by armor or weight. Fortunately, a medium or heavy load has no listed ASF %, so I'd say the bard example wouldn't suffers ASF, as its between the 0% for weight or the effectively 0% of the light armor. As for evasion and monk/ranger abilities, I'd say they are restricted, from a "only when unencumbered" point of view. A medium or heavy load encumbers you, and in the case of the monk, even light armor is considered encumbering (though not a light load, as there is no "no load" category). You simply cannot use those special abilities while encumbered. I believe the point that he was making is that while he is wearing only light armor, he ignores ASF. When he is carrying a medium load, he is treated as wearing medium armor (according to the rules listed). Since he is considered to be wearing medium armor, he cannot ignore his armor spell failure (not the armor spell failure of his light armor, but his armor spell failure of all of his items) which amounts to the ASF of whatever armor he is wearing. I agree that the way it is worded, that would be the case, although it probably was not the way it was intended.