Enlarge Person and Vampires [Archive] - Wizards Community

Enlarge Person and Vampires [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cuindless
02-12-08, 08:55 PM Does the spell enlarge person work on vampires? The spell description says "Target: One humanoid creature". In this case, does it refer to the base creature, which would be a humanoid, or does it refer to the current type of creature, which would be undead.
Andrew
02-12-08, 09:03 PM Type-based target descriptions are always based on current type unless otherwise specified.

The similar (but self-only) psionic power expansion has no such limitation.
Sinis
02-12-08, 10:54 PM A vampire's type, from the SRD is "Undead (Augmented Humanoid)". I guess it could...
Marcus Majarra
02-13-08, 12:04 AM A vampire's type, from the SRD is "Undead (Augmented Humanoid)". I guess it could...
This doesn't work, as humanoids-gone-othertypes would then be subject to spells such as charm person.
Evil DM Mk3
02-13-08, 07:17 AM I agree and all but what is the point of the augmented subtype?
Andrew
02-13-08, 08:38 AM One thing that can be signified by the augmented subtype is that a creature with monster hit dice instead of only levels often have hit die type, as well as skill points, base attack bonus, and so forth based on the original type instead of the current type. For example, an ogre sorcerer that became a half-dragon through Dragon Disciple has stats as per the Giant type for its initial hit dice.
Sinis
02-13-08, 09:32 AM This doesn't work, as humanoids-gone-othertypes would then be subject to spells such as charm person.

Yeah, I was pretty unsure. So, what is the point of the Augmented subtype?
Magrus
02-13-08, 09:36 AM So, what is the point of the Augmented subtype?

To differentiate for this sort of situation perhaps?
Sinis
02-13-08, 02:46 PM To differentiate for this sort of situation perhaps?

But it doesn't provide any differentiation at all. It just confuses things. It'd be easier to just call them "Undead", because those seem to be the rules they adhere to, without exception.
toucanbuzz
02-13-08, 02:49 PM "Enlarge Person" on vampires would fail. All references are from the SRD.

1. Enlarge Person only works on humanoids. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType)
2. Humanoid types breathe, eat, and sleep, and have few, or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities.

In old editions "Enlarge" would work, but as I read it in 3rd edition, it would not.
Marcus Majarra
02-13-08, 05:45 PM The point to the Augmented subtype is for the creature retaining the features of the original type, as Andrew stated above.
sblaxman
02-15-08, 11:45 PM The follow up question is, would you (like me) allow a vampire spell caster to cast enlarge person on himself, and just assume he had a version that effected vampires (enlarge undead maybe?)

As a DM I've always assumed that all races/types that can cast spells have access to all spells, but when a spell descriptor was contradictory, I modified the spell to work for them
Marcus Majarra
02-16-08, 01:25 AM I would not.
Andrew
02-16-08, 02:06 AM So does that mean that a wizard should have access to charm person, charm outsider, charm undead, charm aberration, charm animal, and charm giant, or that a non-human spellcaster only gets charm [own type]?

A spell's a spell. Play it straight.
Evil DM Mk3
02-16-08, 09:06 AM Yes. For what little sense it makes (and I admit it makes only a little) person spells affect humanoids, bigger better spells alone can affect non-humanoids.
toucanbuzz
02-19-08, 12:16 PM You are allowed to create spells, so "Enlarge Undead" is perfectly feasible. Obviously, since it is improving on a spell by allowing it to work on creatures not normally subject to the effects, it should be higher level.

This is up to DM fiat, but I would see 2nd level as reasonable (looking at both Enlarge Person and Animal Growth for balance. Animal Growth expands on # of targets, adds resistances, works on subject besides humanoids, improves range, and increases size, making it 5th level. If you view it as an improved version of Enlarge Person, it has 5 enhancements, 1 per level, that seem to justify the higher level. With Enlarge Undead, you are allowing it to work on other subjects, and likely nothing else, reasonably placing it at 2nd level. In no case should it exceed third level. It's not that powerful for +2 strength, AC penalties, and possibly better reach so as to be any higher).
Colmarr
02-20-08, 07:44 PM While I agree that the caster would need a separate spell to enlarge undead, I don't see a reason why the spell would be any level other than 1.

It is exactly the same spell as enlarge person but affecting a different (as opposed to wider) set of targets.
Andrew
02-20-08, 08:58 PM It is exactly the same spell as enlarge person but affecting a different (as opposed to wider) set of targets.
Consider raise dead and revive outsider (Spell Compendium). The spell level for revive outsider is one higher, and it has an additional restriction that it cannot revive an outsider with more HD than the caster level.

Basic humanoids are weak and frail. Usually they don't get lots of the monster-type abilities, such as natural attacks, improved grab, natural armor, etc. For PC races, almost no other creature is capable of setting a lower bar for being weak. Effects that only augment weaker creatures tend to be of lower level. Making a person bigger is not as big a boost as making a bear bigger. The bear gains more from the transformation.
Legdiwena
02-20-08, 09:01 PM Vampires are not always augmented humanoid, that was just the example they used. Make a deer into a vampire for an augmented animal, hmmm.
McJarvis
02-21-08, 04:23 PM Yeah, I was pretty unsure. So, what is the point of the Augmented subtype?

Sometimes it helps to preserve class features that depended on type. For instance- I'm pretty sure it is the reason why a Red Wizard lich doesn't lose his Red Wizard class features. (and it probably explains why he doesn't lose his human bonus feat either)

edit-

I forget who said it- but the Vampire template from the SRD can not be applied to an animal. It specifically states it can only be applied to Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids.
Someone
02-22-08, 02:15 AM Make a deer into a vampire for an augmented animal, hmmm.Ever wonder why the phrase "its comin' right for us!" was ever needed in the first place?

Ahem. In this case, rather than making dozens of subspells (enlarge outsider, enlarge giant, enlarge abberation, etc., etc.), it would be simpler to make a spell "enlarge monster", and have it work regardless of type. And based on the other ... person/ ... monster spells, it would be a 3rd-level spell.
sblaxman
02-22-08, 12:17 PM Always prefer the 1e "Enlarge"....

Works on anything... and ONLY the target enlarges, not his gear.... you need to touch the person (skin, not armor), but if you do, they'll incredible hulk right out of their clothes/armor/etc
Colmarr
02-26-08, 12:48 AM Consider raise dead and revive outsider (Spell Compendium). The spell level for revive outsider is one higher, and it has an additional restriction that it cannot revive an outsider with more HD than the caster level.
...

Making a person bigger is not as big a boost as making a bear bigger. The bear gains more from the transformation.

I understand your point, but disagree with it. The bear doesn't gain more from the transformation. It receives exactly the same benefit.

Except in the case of a creature whose abilities become significantly more dangerous as size increases, there is no difference in effect between enlarging a humanoid and enlarging an undead.

To view it another way. If a human PC is a match for undead X and both creatures are given the benefit of an Enlarge spell, are they now unevenly matched? I can't think of examples where that would be so.
eamon
02-27-08, 06:18 PM Humanoids are generally medium, and enlarge thus only increases your size to large. An undead-version enlarge with that limitation might be an appropriate spell.

And, don't forget, simply being undead grants many immunities. One of the few advantages humanoids have is that they can enlarge - and when you put it that way, it's pitifully small. Enlarge definitely represents a boost, and granting it to undead is unwise, as a first level spell. I'd require independant spell research, and let em have it as a second level spell which works on undead of all sizes. Don't forget enlarge's long casting time, by the way, which somewhat nerfs it. Making it self-only would be a good-idea, since that makes it less exploitable, and more reasonable that the world isn't full of necromancers enlarging their creations constantly. If you don't make it self only, definitely increase the level even further.
Legdiwena
02-27-08, 06:26 PM Isn't there a spell to enlarge familiars/animal companions to use as a baseline with enlarge human?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cuindless 02-12-08, 08:55 PM	Does the spell enlarge person work on vampires? The spell description says "Target: One humanoid creature". In this case, does it refer to the base creature, which would be a humanoid, or does it refer to the current type of creature, which would be undead.
Andrew 02-12-08, 09:03 PM	Type-based target descriptions are always based on current type unless otherwise specified. The similar (but self-only) psionic power expansion has no such limitation.
Sinis 02-12-08, 10:54 PM	A vampire's type, from the SRD is "Undead (Augmented Humanoid)". I guess it could...
Marcus Majarra 02-13-08, 12:04 AM	A vampire's type, from the SRD is "Undead (Augmented Humanoid)". I guess it could... This doesn't work, as humanoids-gone-othertypes would then be subject to spells such as charm person.
Evil DM Mk3 02-13-08, 07:17 AM	I agree and all but what is the point of the augmented subtype?
Andrew 02-13-08, 08:38 AM	One thing that can be signified by the augmented subtype is that a creature with monster hit dice instead of only levels often have hit die type, as well as skill points, base attack bonus, and so forth based on the original type instead of the current type. For example, an ogre sorcerer that became a half-dragon through Dragon Disciple has stats as per the Giant type for its initial hit dice.
Sinis 02-13-08, 09:32 AM	This doesn't work, as humanoids-gone-othertypes would then be subject to spells such as charm person. Yeah, I was pretty unsure. So, what is the point of the Augmented subtype?
Magrus 02-13-08, 09:36 AM	So, what is the point of the Augmented subtype? To differentiate for this sort of situation perhaps?
Sinis 02-13-08, 02:46 PM	To differentiate for this sort of situation perhaps? But it doesn't provide any differentiation at all. It just confuses things. It'd be easier to just call them "Undead", because those seem to be the rules they adhere to, without exception.
toucanbuzz 02-13-08, 02:49 PM	"Enlarge Person" on vampires would fail. All references are from the SRD. 1. Enlarge Person only works on humanoids. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType) 2. Humanoid types breathe, eat, and sleep, and have few, or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities. In old editions "Enlarge" would work, but as I read it in 3rd edition, it would not.
Marcus Majarra 02-13-08, 05:45 PM	The point to the Augmented subtype is for the creature retaining the features of the original type, as Andrew stated above.
sblaxman 02-15-08, 11:45 PM	The follow up question is, would you (like me) allow a vampire spell caster to cast enlarge person on himself, and just assume he had a version that effected vampires (enlarge undead maybe?) As a DM I've always assumed that all races/types that can cast spells have access to all spells, but when a spell descriptor was contradictory, I modified the spell to work for them
Marcus Majarra 02-16-08, 01:25 AM	I would not.
Andrew 02-16-08, 02:06 AM	So does that mean that a wizard should have access to charm person, charm outsider, charm undead, charm aberration, charm animal, and charm giant, or that a non-human spellcaster only gets charm [own type]? A spell's a spell. Play it straight.
Evil DM Mk3 02-16-08, 09:06 AM	Yes. For what little sense it makes (and I admit it makes only a little) person spells affect humanoids, bigger better spells alone can affect non-humanoids.
toucanbuzz 02-19-08, 12:16 PM	You are allowed to create spells, so "Enlarge Undead" is perfectly feasible. Obviously, since it is improving on a spell by allowing it to work on creatures not normally subject to the effects, it should be higher level. This is up to DM fiat, but I would see 2nd level as reasonable (looking at both Enlarge Person and Animal Growth for balance. Animal Growth expands on # of targets, adds resistances, works on subject besides humanoids, improves range, and increases size, making it 5th level. If you view it as an improved version of Enlarge Person, it has 5 enhancements, 1 per level, that seem to justify the higher level. With Enlarge Undead, you are allowing it to work on other subjects, and likely nothing else, reasonably placing it at 2nd level. In no case should it exceed third level. It's not that powerful for +2 strength, AC penalties, and possibly better reach so as to be any higher).
Colmarr 02-20-08, 07:44 PM	While I agree that the caster would need a separate spell to enlarge undead, I don't see a reason why the spell would be any level other than 1. It is exactly the same spell as enlarge person but affecting a different (as opposed to wider) set of targets.
Andrew 02-20-08, 08:58 PM	It is exactly the same spell as enlarge person but affecting a different (as opposed to wider) set of targets. Consider raise dead and revive outsider (Spell Compendium). The spell level for revive outsider is one higher, and it has an additional restriction that it cannot revive an outsider with more HD than the caster level. Basic humanoids are weak and frail. Usually they don't get lots of the monster-type abilities, such as natural attacks, improved grab, natural armor, etc. For PC races, almost no other creature is capable of setting a lower bar for being weak. Effects that only augment weaker creatures tend to be of lower level. Making a person bigger is not as big a boost as making a bear bigger. The bear gains more from the transformation.
Legdiwena 02-20-08, 09:01 PM	Vampires are not always augmented humanoid, that was just the example they used. Make a deer into a vampire for an augmented animal, hmmm.
McJarvis 02-21-08, 04:23 PM	Yeah, I was pretty unsure. So, what is the point of the Augmented subtype? Sometimes it helps to preserve class features that depended on type. For instance- I'm pretty sure it is the reason why a Red Wizard lich doesn't lose his Red Wizard class features. (and it probably explains why he doesn't lose his human bonus feat either) edit- I forget who said it- but the Vampire template from the SRD can not be applied to an animal. It specifically states it can only be applied to Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids.
Someone 02-22-08, 02:15 AM	Make a deer into a vampire for an augmented animal, hmmm.Ever wonder why the phrase "its comin' right for us!" was ever needed in the first place? Ahem. In this case, rather than making dozens of subspells (enlarge outsider, enlarge giant, enlarge abberation, etc., etc.), it would be simpler to make a spell "enlarge monster", and have it work regardless of type. And based on the other ... person/ ... monster spells, it would be a 3rd-level spell.
sblaxman 02-22-08, 12:17 PM	Always prefer the 1e "Enlarge".... Works on anything... and ONLY the target enlarges, not his gear.... you need to touch the person (skin, not armor), but if you do, they'll incredible hulk right out of their clothes/armor/etc
Colmarr 02-26-08, 12:48 AM	Consider raise dead and revive outsider (Spell Compendium). The spell level for revive outsider is one higher, and it has an additional restriction that it cannot revive an outsider with more HD than the caster level. ... Making a person bigger is not as big a boost as making a bear bigger. The bear gains more from the transformation. I understand your point, but disagree with it. The bear doesn't gain more from the transformation. It receives exactly the same benefit. Except in the case of a creature whose abilities become significantly more dangerous as size increases, there is no difference in effect between enlarging a humanoid and enlarging an undead. To view it another way. If a human PC is a match for undead X and both creatures are given the benefit of an Enlarge spell, are they now unevenly matched? I can't think of examples where that would be so.
eamon 02-27-08, 06:18 PM	Humanoids are generally medium, and enlarge thus only increases your size to large. An undead-version enlarge with that limitation might be an appropriate spell. And, don't forget, simply being undead grants many immunities. One of the few advantages humanoids have is that they can enlarge - and when you put it that way, it's pitifully small. Enlarge definitely represents a boost, and granting it to undead is unwise, as a first level spell. I'd require independant spell research, and let em have it as a second level spell which works on undead of all sizes. Don't forget enlarge's long casting time, by the way, which somewhat nerfs it. Making it self-only would be a good-idea, since that makes it less exploitable, and more reasonable that the world isn't full of necromancers enlarging their creations constantly. If you don't make it self only, definitely increase the level even further.
Legdiwena 02-27-08, 06:26 PM	Isn't there a spell to enlarge familiars/animal companions to use as a baseline with enlarge human?