Enlarge Person and Wild Shape [Archive] - Wizards Community

Enlarge Person and Wild Shape [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarthXaos
03-14-07, 04:04 PM Since Wild Shape doesn't change the creature's type, can Enlarge Person be cast on a wildshaped druid?
KingMarl
03-14-07, 04:40 PM Since Wild Shape doesn't change the creature's type, can Enlarge Person be cast on a wildshaped druid?

Weird as it seems, it will work perfectly fine. As always, this depends on the DM's interpretation (Enlarge Person specifies that it works on "one humanoid creature" - so allowing it to work is dependent on interpreting that as "creatures of the humanoid type" and not "creatures that are humanoid in form").

Personally, it doesn't seem particularly game-breaking, so I'd interpret it as the former, which is probably the intent anyways.
WinDReiN
03-14-07, 07:02 PM I would say yes.
If you cast Enlarge on a person who wildshapes into a beast, the spell is not canceled and affects the beast.
Marcus Majarra
03-16-07, 01:22 PM As long as the wild shape didn't cause the humanoid character to grow in size, enlarge person will work. Enlarge person's description states that multiple magical effects that increase a creature's size do not stack.
Downtym
03-16-07, 02:09 PM Since Wild Shape doesn't change the creature's type, can Enlarge Person be cast on a wildshaped druid?

Yes.
Burgundy Lotus
03-16-07, 09:20 PM As long as the wild shape didn't cause the humanoid character to grow in size, enlarge person will work. Enlarge person's description states that multiple magical effects that increase a creature's size do not stack.

At higher levels this will come into play a lot if the druid id going for a powerful creature.
KingMarl
03-19-07, 08:36 AM As long as the wild shape didn't cause the humanoid character to grow in size, enlarge person will work. Enlarge person's description states that multiple magical effects that increase a creature's size do not stack.

Thanks for pointing that out - I missed that part of the description. Makes a lot more sense that way.
rikimaru75
03-19-07, 05:42 PM so this means that casting Enlarge Person on a Druid that wildshapes Large/Huge/Tiny doesn't work? only medium and small?
MarkB
03-19-07, 05:58 PM so this means that casting Enlarge Person on a Druid that wildshapes Large/Huge/Tiny doesn't work? only medium and small?

Well, Tiny will work because it's only multiple size-increasing effects that don't stack.
rikimaru75
03-19-07, 06:06 PM Well, Tiny will work because it's only multiple size-increasing effects that don't stack.

Just thought of something; what about a small druid (say Gnome Druid for example) wildshaping into a Medium Humanoid (with the help of Master of Many Forms), would enlarge person work there?
MarkB
03-19-07, 06:08 PM Just thought of something; what about a small druid (say Gnome Druid for example) wildshaping into a Medium Humanoid (with the help of Master of Many Forms), would enlarge person work there?

Did he just use a magical effect that increased his size?
rikimaru75
03-19-07, 06:09 PM Well, wildshaping is a supernatural ability, so...then Enlarge Person works?
Pegasos989
03-19-07, 06:14 PM The fact that enlarge person doesn't stack with "effects that enchance size" means it doesn't stack with
-another casting of EP
-casting of giant size
-casting of righteous might
-casting of expansion(psionic)
-etc.

effects that enchance size.

However, I would claim that wild shape is not an effect that enchances size in itself. It changess shape (even to creature of diffrent size) and does not enchance size. Saying that changing your form completely to a bear through supernatural ability and casting enlarge person are similar effects that enchance size in a same manner seems quite far fetched.

EDIT: For those claiming that this is some sort of rules lawyering... It is not. DnD is about terms. It is diffrent if something gives natural armor +1 and gives increasement to natural armor +1, for example.

Naturally, if DM feels it is really gamebreaking he can disallow it but...

The player thought of a clever trick and rather than disallowing it, I would encourage to let him use it and give a small boost to other characters as well (extra magic items for them or such) so that the balance stays but player gets to enjoy his trick.
MarkB
03-19-07, 07:22 PM Well, wildshaping is a supernatural ability, so...then Enlarge Person works?

Supernatural abilities are magical.
Downtym
03-19-07, 07:33 PM The fact that enlarge person doesn't stack with "effects that enchance size" means it doesn't stack with
-another casting of EP
-casting of giant size
-casting of righteous might
-casting of expansion(psionic)
-etc.

effects that enchance size.

However, I would claim that wild shape is not an effect that enchances size in itself. It changess shape (even to creature of diffrent size) and does not enchance size. Saying that changing your form completely to a bear through supernatural ability and casting enlarge person are similar effects that enchance size in a same manner seems quite far fetched.

EDIT: For those claiming that this is some sort of rules lawyering... It is not. DnD is about terms. It is diffrent if something gives natural armor +1 and gives increasement to natural armor +1, for example.

Naturally, if DM feels it is really gamebreaking he can disallow it but...

The player thought of a clever trick and rather than disallowing it, I would encourage to let him use it and give a small boost to other characters as well (extra magic items for them or such) so that the balance stays but player gets to enjoy his trick.

Wouldn't this similarly argue that polymorphing or shapeshifting would allow enlarge person to stack? Gnome wizard polymorphs himself into a human then Enlarge person's for Large size? (I know it sounds degenerate, but it still bears examination)
Pegasos989
03-20-07, 01:07 AM Wouldn't this similarly argue that polymorphing or shapeshifting would allow enlarge person to stack? Gnome wizard polymorphs himself into a human then Enlarge person's for Large size? (I know it sounds degenerate, but it still bears examination)

Yes.

However, polymorph and that line of spells are already rediculously broken and the fact that enlarge person stacks with them doesn't practically matter anymore... ;D
KingMarl
03-20-07, 08:50 AM Wild Shape, as mentioned above, is a magical effect.

If you use it to change into a creature larger than your natural form, it's clearly a magical effect that changes your size, since you're no longer the same size. The fact that you're also in another shape is cool, but not relevant to determining whether you've changed size.

Doesn't change the fact that Shapechange is pretty broken, however. :)
Marcus Majarra
03-20-07, 04:49 PM However, I would claim that wild shape is not an effect that enchances size in itself. It changess shape (even to creature of diffrent size) and does not enchance size.
If a magical effect results in your increasing your size, you cannot use another magical effect to further increase your size. This goes both ways: if a magical effect results in reducing size, no other effect can further reduce your size.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarthXaos 03-14-07, 04:04 PM	Since Wild Shape doesn't change the creature's type, can Enlarge Person be cast on a wildshaped druid?
KingMarl 03-14-07, 04:40 PM	Since Wild Shape doesn't change the creature's type, can Enlarge Person be cast on a wildshaped druid? Weird as it seems, it will work perfectly fine. As always, this depends on the DM's interpretation (Enlarge Person specifies that it works on "one humanoid creature" - so allowing it to work is dependent on interpreting that as "creatures of the humanoid type" and not "creatures that are humanoid in form"). Personally, it doesn't seem particularly game-breaking, so I'd interpret it as the former, which is probably the intent anyways.
WinDReiN 03-14-07, 07:02 PM	I would say yes. If you cast Enlarge on a person who wildshapes into a beast, the spell is not canceled and affects the beast.
Marcus Majarra 03-16-07, 01:22 PM	As long as the wild shape didn't cause the humanoid character to grow in size, enlarge person will work. Enlarge person's description states that multiple magical effects that increase a creature's size do not stack.
Downtym 03-16-07, 02:09 PM	Since Wild Shape doesn't change the creature's type, can Enlarge Person be cast on a wildshaped druid? Yes.
Burgundy Lotus 03-16-07, 09:20 PM	As long as the wild shape didn't cause the humanoid character to grow in size, enlarge person will work. Enlarge person's description states that multiple magical effects that increase a creature's size do not stack. At higher levels this will come into play a lot if the druid id going for a powerful creature.
KingMarl 03-19-07, 08:36 AM	As long as the wild shape didn't cause the humanoid character to grow in size, enlarge person will work. Enlarge person's description states that multiple magical effects that increase a creature's size do not stack. Thanks for pointing that out - I missed that part of the description. Makes a lot more sense that way.
rikimaru75 03-19-07, 05:42 PM	so this means that casting Enlarge Person on a Druid that wildshapes Large/Huge/Tiny doesn't work? only medium and small?
MarkB 03-19-07, 05:58 PM	so this means that casting Enlarge Person on a Druid that wildshapes Large/Huge/Tiny doesn't work? only medium and small? Well, Tiny will work because it's only multiple size-increasing effects that don't stack.
rikimaru75 03-19-07, 06:06 PM	Well, Tiny will work because it's only multiple size-increasing effects that don't stack. Just thought of something; what about a small druid (say Gnome Druid for example) wildshaping into a Medium Humanoid (with the help of Master of Many Forms), would enlarge person work there?
MarkB 03-19-07, 06:08 PM	Just thought of something; what about a small druid (say Gnome Druid for example) wildshaping into a Medium Humanoid (with the help of Master of Many Forms), would enlarge person work there? Did he just use a magical effect that increased his size?
rikimaru75 03-19-07, 06:09 PM	Well, wildshaping is a supernatural ability, so...then Enlarge Person works?
Pegasos989 03-19-07, 06:14 PM	The fact that enlarge person doesn't stack with "effects that enchance size" means it doesn't stack with -another casting of EP -casting of giant size -casting of righteous might -casting of expansion(psionic) -etc. effects that enchance size. However, I would claim that wild shape is not an effect that enchances size in itself. It changess shape (even to creature of diffrent size) and does not enchance size. Saying that changing your form completely to a bear through supernatural ability and casting enlarge person are similar effects that enchance size in a same manner seems quite far fetched. EDIT: For those claiming that this is some sort of rules lawyering... It is not. DnD is about terms. It is diffrent if something gives natural armor +1 and gives increasement to natural armor +1, for example. Naturally, if DM feels it is really gamebreaking he can disallow it but... The player thought of a clever trick and rather than disallowing it, I would encourage to let him use it and give a small boost to other characters as well (extra magic items for them or such) so that the balance stays but player gets to enjoy his trick.
MarkB 03-19-07, 07:22 PM	Well, wildshaping is a supernatural ability, so...then Enlarge Person works? Supernatural abilities are magical.
Downtym 03-19-07, 07:33 PM	The fact that enlarge person doesn't stack with "effects that enchance size" means it doesn't stack with -another casting of EP -casting of giant size -casting of righteous might -casting of expansion(psionic) -etc. effects that enchance size. However, I would claim that wild shape is not an effect that enchances size in itself. It changess shape (even to creature of diffrent size) and does not enchance size. Saying that changing your form completely to a bear through supernatural ability and casting enlarge person are similar effects that enchance size in a same manner seems quite far fetched. EDIT: For those claiming that this is some sort of rules lawyering... It is not. DnD is about terms. It is diffrent if something gives natural armor +1 and gives increasement to natural armor +1, for example. Naturally, if DM feels it is really gamebreaking he can disallow it but... The player thought of a clever trick and rather than disallowing it, I would encourage to let him use it and give a small boost to other characters as well (extra magic items for them or such) so that the balance stays but player gets to enjoy his trick. Wouldn't this similarly argue that polymorphing or shapeshifting would allow enlarge person to stack? Gnome wizard polymorphs himself into a human then Enlarge person's for Large size? (I know it sounds degenerate, but it still bears examination)
Pegasos989 03-20-07, 01:07 AM	Wouldn't this similarly argue that polymorphing or shapeshifting would allow enlarge person to stack? Gnome wizard polymorphs himself into a human then Enlarge person's for Large size? (I know it sounds degenerate, but it still bears examination) Yes. However, polymorph and that line of spells are already rediculously broken and the fact that enlarge person stacks with them doesn't practically matter anymore... ;D
KingMarl 03-20-07, 08:50 AM	Wild Shape, as mentioned above, is a magical effect. If you use it to change into a creature larger than your natural form, it's clearly a magical effect that changes your size, since you're no longer the same size. The fact that you're also in another shape is cool, but not relevant to determining whether you've changed size. Doesn't change the fact that Shapechange is pretty broken, however. :)
Marcus Majarra 03-20-07, 04:49 PM	However, I would claim that wild shape is not an effect that enchances size in itself. It changess shape (even to creature of diffrent size) and does not enchance size. If a magical effect results in your increasing your size, you cannot use another magical effect to further increase your size. This goes both ways: if a magical effect results in reducing size, no other effect can further reduce your size.