Enlarge Person [Archive] - Wizards Community

Enlarge Person [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hapycamper
05-15-07, 04:44 PM What happens when a character is surrounded by opponents and then another character casts enlarge person on him/her?

What do you do with the characters/monsters that are going to try to share the new, larger character's spaces?
tos_shai_hulud
05-15-07, 05:24 PM The rules are silent on this, but I tend to like using squeezing rules until everything can be shifted. Things don't automatically fit into the neat little 5' squares provided. If something changes size so that there is less area, everything else must squeeze. When it first occurs, the creature that is expanding may find himself entering squares belonging to an enemy. This provokes attacks of opportunity from all enemies whose squares are being entered. After that, those creatures have a choice. They can remain in their current squares (and take squeezing penalties), or they can take a free 5' step back. Should the square they step into have a creature in it already, they might suffer squeezing penalties in that square, as well. Eventually, all creatures may adjust to avoid squeezing.
Nom
05-15-07, 06:16 PM Alternatively, just make the big critter squeeze until it can get free. The rules already allow for this.
Hapycamper
05-15-07, 07:42 PM The rules are silent on this, but I tend to like using squeezing rules until everything can be shifted. Things don't automatically fit into the neat little 5' squares provided. If something changes size so that there is less area, everything else must squeeze. When it first occurs, the creature that is expanding may find himself entering squares belonging to an enemy. This provokes attacks of opportunity from all enemies whose squares are being entered.

See, I think that doesn't fit the rules. Attacks of opportunity come from leaving squares, not entering them...
Inigo Carmine
05-15-07, 08:10 PM See, I think that doesn't fit the rules. Attacks of opportunity come from leaving squares, not entering them...

They come from Leaving threatened squares, not entering threatened squares. This is true. Entering an occupied square (of someone who threatens) however is a distinct and separate case that does provoke an AoO. Check the grapple and Bullrush rules.

This specific situation however, is not described in the rules. The following is Rule 0 territory:

Normally when one is enlarging they are given a chance to "burst" their surroundings. I would probably let the player attempt a free bullrush (only pushing enemies back 5ft regardless or how much they are beat by). If he manages to push enough people away to give himself a 10x10 area, good. If not, he's "squeezed" into his current space.

I may or may not make him provoke an AoO on anyone he tries to push out of the way. I'd need more thought on that.
bobothechimp
05-15-07, 08:24 PM So, you are saying "there is insufficient room available for the desired growth"? In that case, I would say "The creature attains maximum possible size and must make a strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size."

So the creature and any other creatures preventing it's growth must make opposed strength checks. This is all pretty clear in the rules.
tos_shai_hulud
05-15-07, 11:00 PM So, you are saying "there is insufficient room available for the desired growth"? In that case, I would say "The creature attains maximum possible size and must make a strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size."

So the creature and any other creatures preventing it's growth must make opposed strength checks. This is all pretty clear in the rules.

Creatures in the way are not enclosures. I think that is pretty much not clear in the rules. A creature that takes up a 10' x 10' square on the game board is not a 10' x 10' cube. He may be 4' x 2' x 12' (I am estimating doubling all aspects of a possible human's size). Nonetheless, he takes up a full 10' x 10' square on the game board. Those squares are used for combat purposes, not for the purposes of determining "enclosure". If he grows to that size without succeeding on Strength checks, he is squeezed.
mvincent
05-16-07, 05:13 PM I think that is pretty much not clearI personally agree with bobothechimp, but I respect your right to feel that it is unclear.
Hapycamper
05-18-07, 07:50 PM I personally agree with bobothechimp, but I respect your right to feel that it is unclear.

I have to admit that BobotheChimp's solution to the problem was my first choice for resolution - do an opposed strength check to see if the opponent is pushed back. (This lets super-strong opponents prevent the Enlarge Person spell from going off...)

On the other hand, I have to say I don't think the rules are clear. I'm not ready to out-of-hand that a person (or a group of people) is the same as an enclosure...

If we were to follow that to the extreme, would a group surrounding a character get to assist each other in a strength check or would they all have to make a check and the weakest one (if any) would be pushed back?

Is there a more formal place I could ask questions like this to get an "official" response?
Nom
05-19-07, 12:29 AM I'm still not sure I get the enthusiasm to push into other character's squares. RAW, a 10x10 character can occupy a 5x5 square - he just has to "squeeze" to do it (and suffer appropriate penalties).
Hapycamper
05-20-07, 12:08 PM I'm still not sure I get the enthusiasm to push into other character's squares. RAW, a 10x10 character can occupy a 5x5 square - he just has to "squeeze" to do it (and suffer appropriate penalties).
I guess it is a question of whether a 10x10 character can "sqeeze" themselves any time they want, or do they need to be forced by an object or thing?

OK, so lets say a fighter is surrounded on all sides, and then someone puts enlarge person on her. Can the fighter bull rush (or push or whatever) more than one person at a time to clear out enough room to be NOT squeezed?

If they can only push one person at a time, they'll never have enough room to expand, as that person can just push back each time... (Or do they push one person to get a 5'x10' space, then next turn push another person to get a 5'x10'x5' "L" shape space, and then finally a third turn they can push out the last guy from out of her full 10x10' space... - taking 3 turns to get out of a full-press "squeeze")
Hapycamper
05-20-07, 12:18 PM Hmm, I just checked the SRD and squeezing rules again. It looks like a creature without the "Escape Artist" skill cannot be put into a 5'x5' square... so we're still looking for a solution....

Basically, a 10x10' (Large) creature can squeeze into 5'x10' with a -4 to AC & to hit, but unless they have the escape artist skill they can't squeeze smaller than that... (Thus, a surrounded fighter needs space if they're going to be enlarged to "Large" size...)
StoneStokes
05-20-07, 01:41 PM Hmm, I just checked the SRD and squeezing rules again. It looks like a creature without the "Escape Artist" skill cannot be put into a 5'x5' square... so we're still looking for a solution....

Basically, a 10x10' (Large) creature can squeeze into 5'x10' with a -4 to AC & to hit, but unless they have the escape artist skill they can't squeeze smaller than that... (Thus, a surrounded fighter needs space if they're going to be enlarged to "Large" size...)

Escape Artist can be used untrained.
StoneStokes
05-20-07, 01:54 PM This is what I would rule:

If the creatures surrounding said fighter are medium or smaller, at least some of them get pushed back 5 ft., making room for our hero.

Why?

It's fast and easy.
It doesn't change the fact that the fighter is surrounded.
It is not out of line with the level of the spell.
It is "cinematic."

Now, if the surrounding creatures are large or larger, then I would rule that our hero is squeezed, and cannot move or attack, until there is at least one more square free, or he succeeds on a DC 25 Escape Artist check (at which point he could attack with a -4 penalty).

The second situation is supported by RAW, but the first is not, admittedly. However, it's the way I'd rule it.
Nom
05-20-07, 07:20 PM Hmm, I just checked the SRD and squeezing rules again. It looks like a creature without the "Escape Artist" skill cannot be put into a 5'x5' square... so we're still looking for a solution....

Basically, a 10x10' (Large) creature can squeeze into 5'x10' with a -4 to AC & to hit, but unless they have the escape artist skill they can't squeeze smaller than that... (Thus, a surrounded fighter needs space if they're going to be enlarged to "Large" size...)The rules say "to squeeze into or through a space less than half your space's width ...". This makes no ruling on a space half your width and half your length.

Also, there's a precedent in the Player's Handbook II: the polymorph subschool explicitly references the squeezing rules for when a polymorphed creature can't fit (pg 96).

Finally, let's briefly look at realism. A human's space in D&D is 5 ft. by 5 ft.. Now, can you stand in a space only 2.5 ft. by 2.5 ft? Trivially. Can you fight? Not well. You're "squeezing".
ltbaxter
05-23-07, 11:10 PM Most of the suggestions so far would work. Some comments (as the one in this case being enlarged :)

- Unlike Polymorph (described in PHB2) the Enlarge person is designed to allow growth up to space available rather than fail.
- The spell description for Enlarge Person says the growth is instantaneous, so there's no way there should be an Attack of Opportunity (imho)
- I do like the opposed Str checks for simplicity and would be prone to do that first
- Failing the check I would have the character choose whether they wanted to squeeze (as per normal SRD rules) into a 5' x 10' square or stop the expansion from proceeding (as it would with a hard enclosure)

Physically, it's easy to see this. If the person tried to hold his ground (weight on back foot) it would be a strength-based push forward, while if they stood in a way that didn't brace themself to push into the opponent (weight on front foot expanding backwards), they would expand in a way where they would need to squeeze to fit into the space.

Note, if this were a 5' wide hallway, the spell wouldn't fail, nor would they be crushed; they would simply be taking up a squeezed 5' x 10' position.

If there's any 'official' rule, it would be good to know, but these all seem fine.

On a tangent note - if the enlarged creature was a dwarf fighting an ogre, they would keep their +4 racial dodge bonus to AC for fighting a giant class, right? :cool:
StoneStokes
05-24-07, 01:52 AM On a tangent note - if the enlarged creature was a dwarf fighting an ogre, they would keep their +4 racial dodge bonus to AC for fighting a giant class, right? :cool:

Yes. This is a racial bonus, not a size bonus. It is borne of familiarity with their racial enemies.
primemover003
05-26-07, 08:15 AM On a tangent note - if the enlarged creature was a dwarf fighting an ogre, they would keep their +4 racial dodge bonus to AC for fighting a giant class, right? :cool:

Yes. This is a racial bonus, not a size bonus. It is borne of familiarity with their racial enemies.
No they would not... the Racial bonus applies to fighting Giants, not large humanoid shaped creatures. An Enlarged Human is not a Giant, it's a Large sized Humanoid. Their training techniques only apply to creatures of the Giant Type.
Hapycamper
05-26-07, 08:45 AM No they would not... the Racial bonus applies to fighting Giants, not large humanoid shaped creatures. An Enlarged Human is not a Giant, it's a Large sized Humanoid. Their training techniques only apply to creatures of the Giant Type.

The bonus referred to the Dwarf... he (or she) still gets their dodge bonus against the Ogre (which is a Giant) even though the dwarf is now the same size as the Ogre...

You do make a good point, though... dwarves don't get their bonus +4 to AC when fighting a humanoid who's been affected by Enlarge Person.
primemover003
05-26-07, 08:48 AM Ah yes, so it did... missed that in my haste to post. :blush:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hapycamper 05-15-07, 04:44 PM	What happens when a character is surrounded by opponents and then another character casts enlarge person on him/her? What do you do with the characters/monsters that are going to try to share the new, larger character's spaces?
tos_shai_hulud 05-15-07, 05:24 PM	The rules are silent on this, but I tend to like using squeezing rules until everything can be shifted. Things don't automatically fit into the neat little 5' squares provided. If something changes size so that there is less area, everything else must squeeze. When it first occurs, the creature that is expanding may find himself entering squares belonging to an enemy. This provokes attacks of opportunity from all enemies whose squares are being entered. After that, those creatures have a choice. They can remain in their current squares (and take squeezing penalties), or they can take a free 5' step back. Should the square they step into have a creature in it already, they might suffer squeezing penalties in that square, as well. Eventually, all creatures may adjust to avoid squeezing.
Nom 05-15-07, 06:16 PM	Alternatively, just make the big critter squeeze until it can get free. The rules already allow for this.
Hapycamper 05-15-07, 07:42 PM	The rules are silent on this, but I tend to like using squeezing rules until everything can be shifted. Things don't automatically fit into the neat little 5' squares provided. If something changes size so that there is less area, everything else must squeeze. When it first occurs, the creature that is expanding may find himself entering squares belonging to an enemy. This provokes attacks of opportunity from all enemies whose squares are being entered. See, I think that doesn't fit the rules. Attacks of opportunity come from leaving squares, not entering them...
Inigo Carmine 05-15-07, 08:10 PM	See, I think that doesn't fit the rules. Attacks of opportunity come from leaving squares, not entering them... They come from Leaving threatened squares, not entering threatened squares. This is true. Entering an occupied square (of someone who threatens) however is a distinct and separate case that does provoke an AoO. Check the grapple and Bullrush rules. This specific situation however, is not described in the rules. The following is Rule 0 territory: Normally when one is enlarging they are given a chance to "burst" their surroundings. I would probably let the player attempt a free bullrush (only pushing enemies back 5ft regardless or how much they are beat by). If he manages to push enough people away to give himself a 10x10 area, good. If not, he's "squeezed" into his current space. I may or may not make him provoke an AoO on anyone he tries to push out of the way. I'd need more thought on that.
bobothechimp 05-15-07, 08:24 PM	So, you are saying "there is insufficient room available for the desired growth"? In that case, I would say "The creature attains maximum possible size and must make a strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size." So the creature and any other creatures preventing it's growth must make opposed strength checks. This is all pretty clear in the rules.
tos_shai_hulud 05-15-07, 11:00 PM	So, you are saying "there is insufficient room available for the desired growth"? In that case, I would say "The creature attains maximum possible size and must make a strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size." So the creature and any other creatures preventing it's growth must make opposed strength checks. This is all pretty clear in the rules. Creatures in the way are not enclosures. I think that is pretty much not clear in the rules. A creature that takes up a 10' x 10' square on the game board is not a 10' x 10' cube. He may be 4' x 2' x 12' (I am estimating doubling all aspects of a possible human's size). Nonetheless, he takes up a full 10' x 10' square on the game board. Those squares are used for combat purposes, not for the purposes of determining "enclosure". If he grows to that size without succeeding on Strength checks, he is squeezed.
mvincent 05-16-07, 05:13 PM	I think that is pretty much not clearI personally agree with bobothechimp, but I respect your right to feel that it is unclear.
Hapycamper 05-18-07, 07:50 PM	I personally agree with bobothechimp, but I respect your right to feel that it is unclear. I have to admit that BobotheChimp's solution to the problem was my first choice for resolution - do an opposed strength check to see if the opponent is pushed back. (This lets super-strong opponents prevent the Enlarge Person spell from going off...) On the other hand, I have to say I don't think the rules are clear. I'm not ready to out-of-hand that a person (or a group of people) is the same as an enclosure... If we were to follow that to the extreme, would a group surrounding a character get to assist each other in a strength check or would they all have to make a check and the weakest one (if any) would be pushed back? Is there a more formal place I could ask questions like this to get an "official" response?
Nom 05-19-07, 12:29 AM	I'm still not sure I get the enthusiasm to push into other character's squares. RAW, a 10x10 character can occupy a 5x5 square - he just has to "squeeze" to do it (and suffer appropriate penalties).
Hapycamper 05-20-07, 12:08 PM	I'm still not sure I get the enthusiasm to push into other character's squares. RAW, a 10x10 character can occupy a 5x5 square - he just has to "squeeze" to do it (and suffer appropriate penalties). I guess it is a question of whether a 10x10 character can "sqeeze" themselves any time they want, or do they need to be forced by an object or thing? OK, so lets say a fighter is surrounded on all sides, and then someone puts enlarge person on her. Can the fighter bull rush (or push or whatever) more than one person at a time to clear out enough room to be NOT squeezed? If they can only push one person at a time, they'll never have enough room to expand, as that person can just push back each time... (Or do they push one person to get a 5'x10' space, then next turn push another person to get a 5'x10'x5' "L" shape space, and then finally a third turn they can push out the last guy from out of her full 10x10' space... - taking 3 turns to get out of a full-press "squeeze")
Hapycamper 05-20-07, 12:18 PM	Hmm, I just checked the SRD and squeezing rules again. It looks like a creature without the "Escape Artist" skill cannot be put into a 5'x5' square... so we're still looking for a solution.... Basically, a 10x10' (Large) creature can squeeze into 5'x10' with a -4 to AC & to hit, but unless they have the escape artist skill they can't squeeze smaller than that... (Thus, a surrounded fighter needs space if they're going to be enlarged to "Large" size...)
StoneStokes 05-20-07, 01:41 PM	Hmm, I just checked the SRD and squeezing rules again. It looks like a creature without the "Escape Artist" skill cannot be put into a 5'x5' square... so we're still looking for a solution.... Basically, a 10x10' (Large) creature can squeeze into 5'x10' with a -4 to AC & to hit, but unless they have the escape artist skill they can't squeeze smaller than that... (Thus, a surrounded fighter needs space if they're going to be enlarged to "Large" size...) Escape Artist can be used untrained.
StoneStokes 05-20-07, 01:54 PM	This is what I would rule: If the creatures surrounding said fighter are medium or smaller, at least some of them get pushed back 5 ft., making room for our hero. Why? It's fast and easy. It doesn't change the fact that the fighter is surrounded. It is not out of line with the level of the spell. It is "cinematic." Now, if the surrounding creatures are large or larger, then I would rule that our hero is squeezed, and cannot move or attack, until there is at least one more square free, or he succeeds on a DC 25 Escape Artist check (at which point he could attack with a -4 penalty). The second situation is supported by RAW, but the first is not, admittedly. However, it's the way I'd rule it.
Nom 05-20-07, 07:20 PM	Hmm, I just checked the SRD and squeezing rules again. It looks like a creature without the "Escape Artist" skill cannot be put into a 5'x5' square... so we're still looking for a solution.... Basically, a 10x10' (Large) creature can squeeze into 5'x10' with a -4 to AC & to hit, but unless they have the escape artist skill they can't squeeze smaller than that... (Thus, a surrounded fighter needs space if they're going to be enlarged to "Large" size...)The rules say "to squeeze into or through a space less than half your space's width ...". This makes no ruling on a space half your width and half your length. Also, there's a precedent in the Player's Handbook II: the polymorph subschool explicitly references the squeezing rules for when a polymorphed creature can't fit (pg 96). Finally, let's briefly look at realism. A human's space in D&D is 5 ft. by 5 ft.. Now, can you stand in a space only 2.5 ft. by 2.5 ft? Trivially. Can you fight? Not well. You're "squeezing".
ltbaxter 05-23-07, 11:10 PM	Most of the suggestions so far would work. Some comments (as the one in this case being enlarged :) - Unlike Polymorph (described in PHB2) the Enlarge person is designed to allow growth up to space available rather than fail. - The spell description for Enlarge Person says the growth is instantaneous, so there's no way there should be an Attack of Opportunity (imho) - I do like the opposed Str checks for simplicity and would be prone to do that first - Failing the check I would have the character choose whether they wanted to squeeze (as per normal SRD rules) into a 5' x 10' square or stop the expansion from proceeding (as it would with a hard enclosure) Physically, it's easy to see this. If the person tried to hold his ground (weight on back foot) it would be a strength-based push forward, while if they stood in a way that didn't brace themself to push into the opponent (weight on front foot expanding backwards), they would expand in a way where they would need to squeeze to fit into the space. Note, if this were a 5' wide hallway, the spell wouldn't fail, nor would they be crushed; they would simply be taking up a squeezed 5' x 10' position. If there's any 'official' rule, it would be good to know, but these all seem fine. On a tangent note - if the enlarged creature was a dwarf fighting an ogre, they would keep their +4 racial dodge bonus to AC for fighting a giant class, right? :cool:
StoneStokes 05-24-07, 01:52 AM	On a tangent note - if the enlarged creature was a dwarf fighting an ogre, they would keep their +4 racial dodge bonus to AC for fighting a giant class, right? :cool: Yes. This is a racial bonus, not a size bonus. It is borne of familiarity with their racial enemies.
primemover003 05-26-07, 08:15 AM	On a tangent note - if the enlarged creature was a dwarf fighting an ogre, they would keep their +4 racial dodge bonus to AC for fighting a giant class, right? :cool: Yes. This is a racial bonus, not a size bonus. It is borne of familiarity with their racial enemies. No they would not... the Racial bonus applies to fighting Giants, not large humanoid shaped creatures. An Enlarged Human is not a Giant, it's a Large sized Humanoid. Their training techniques only apply to creatures of the Giant Type.
Hapycamper 05-26-07, 08:45 AM	No they would not... the Racial bonus applies to fighting Giants, not large humanoid shaped creatures. An Enlarged Human is not a Giant, it's a Large sized Humanoid. Their training techniques only apply to creatures of the Giant Type. The bonus referred to the Dwarf... he (or she) still gets their dodge bonus against the Ogre (which is a Giant) even though the dwarf is now the same size as the Ogre... You do make a good point, though... dwarves don't get their bonus +4 to AC when fighting a humanoid who's been affected by Enlarge Person.
primemover003 05-26-07, 08:48 AM	Ah yes, so it did... missed that in my haste to post. :blush: