Extra attack after Trip even on AoO? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Extra attack after Trip even on AoO? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DigitalMage
10-26-07, 12:13 PM The Improved Trip feat states "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt."

If my trip attack is made as an Attack of Opportunity, do I still get that extra attack?

E.g. My character has a flail and the feat Improved Trip. A foe tries to attack me unarmed provoking an AoO which I use to trip him, do I then get another attack which I can use to injure him? And if so does that second attack benefit from the opponent having -4 AC for being prone?

What about if the foe isn't actively engaging me in melee but is moving through my threatened area - if I trip him with a melee weapon as an AoO is that considered to be "in melee combat" and would I get the second attack?
mvincent
10-26-07, 02:21 PM If my trip attack is made as an Attack of Opportunity, do I still get that extra attack?Yes.

What about if the foe isn't actively engaging me in melee but is moving through my threatened area - if I trip him with a melee weapon as an AoO is that considered to be "in melee combat" and would I get the second attack?Yes.
br13
10-26-07, 06:48 PM does that second attack benefit from the opponent having -4 AC for being prone?
I agree with the previous poster and another 'yes' from me.
eamon
10-27-07, 09:53 AM Yes and Yes ;-)

The only exception to Improved Trip's extra attack that I'm aware of is Whirlwind attack, which explicitly denies all bonus follow-on attacks (clearly hinting at cleave but also Improved Trip there). Even there, some people rule that Improved Trip's attack isn't "extra" or "bonus" and so that you get it even with a whirlwind attack. In all other cases you do get the bonus attack.

There are some feats that allow ranged tripping, and in such a case perhaps you're not in melee combat and you'd then not get the follow-up attack either.
Sildatorak
10-27-07, 11:33 AM You also won't get a bonus attack if your trip was already a bonus on top of a melee attack. This is a pretty rare thing, though, I can only think of an awakened wolf, werewolf, or possibly someone with the 3.0 knockdown feat from one of the splatbooks doing that.
DigitalMage
10-29-07, 09:55 AM Okay, thanks! That makes it a good way to damage a high AC foe - a touch attack and opposed strength check to trip them, then attack with a -4 AC :)
Empirate
11-07-07, 10:17 AM It's actually more a potentially good way of hurting high AC opponents. The more rolls you have to make, even if all of these are easier than the one attack roll (without +4 for prone defender), the more chances you'll have to botch one. The important thing about prone defenders is not only the -4 to AC, but also the move action they use to stand up and the AoO(s) that standing up provokes.
PhaedrusXY
11-07-07, 02:53 PM It's actually more a potentially good way of hurting high AC opponents. The more rolls you have to make, even if all of these are easier than the one attack roll (without +4 for prone defender), the more chances you'll have to botch one. The important thing about prone defenders is not only the -4 to AC, but also the move action they use to stand up and the AoO(s) that standing up provokes.Are you talking about critical fumble house rules here? Because otherwise, what you're saying doesn't really seem to make much sense.

A "botch" just means you miss. Yes, if you get more attacks then you have more chances to "botch", but you also have more chances to hit, or even roll a natural 20 and automatically hit.
mvincent
11-07-07, 03:04 PM Are you talking about critical fumble house rules here? I think he was just talking about a regular miss. Since damaging someone with improved trip requires 4 separate rolls (touch attack, your str check, opponent's str check, then a regular attack), chances are that at least one of these rolls will go wonky (especially since a d20 roll has no bell curve).
PhaedrusXY
11-07-07, 04:24 PM That's true. I see the point now.
BoringInfoGuy
11-07-07, 04:44 PM It's actually more a potentially good way of hurting high AC opponents. The more rolls you have to make, even if all of these are easier than the one attack roll (without +4 for prone defender), the more chances you'll have to botch one. The important thing about prone defenders is not only the -4 to AC, but also the move action they use to stand up and the AoO(s) that standing up provokes.

Just remember that the Attack of Opportunity you can make against a prone defender getting up can't be another trip attack. The attack interrupts the action that provokes it before it can be completed, and you can't trip an already prone defender.

Of course, if it's a spiked chain tripper, that makes a great time to attempt a disarm. The chain gives a bonus that stacks with the normal bonus to two handed weapons used in disarm attempts.

And the Attack of Opportunity from trying to retrieve his weapon can be used to trip him again. . .
DigitalMage
11-08-07, 12:51 PM Of course, if it's a spiked chain tripper, that makes a great time to attempt a disarm. The chain gives a bonus that stacks with the normal bonus to two handed weapons used in disarm attempts.

And the Attack of Opportunity from trying to retrieve his weapon can be used to trip him again. . .
This is exactly the tactics I will be using for my Rogue1 / Paladin2 although I will be using a masterwork flail (which also gives a bonus to disarm!). trip the opponent, disarm them and give them a chance to surrender :)
BoringInfoGuy
11-09-07, 02:28 PM This is exactly the tactics I will be using for my Rogue1 / Paladin2 although I will be using a masterwork flail (which also gives a bonus to disarm!). trip the opponent, disarm them and give them a chance to surrender :)

That's exactly the mix of dirty fighting and honorable combat I'd expect from a rogue pally combo.

I was thinking about it, and you can speed that up a round. With the Improved trip feat, that extra attack doesn't have to be an attack roll. The extra attack is used just as if you hadn't used your attack to trip your opponent.

Enemy provokes AoO.
Use AoO to trip.
Use free attack from Imp Trip to Disarm.
Ask for surrender.

And if they refuse, you are free to use the AoO from them getting up to attack.
DigitalMage
11-14-07, 11:43 AM I was thinking about it, and you can speed that up a round. With the Improved trip feat, that extra attack doesn't have to be an attack roll. The extra attack is used just as if you hadn't used your attack to trip your opponent.

Enemy provokes AoO.
Use AoO to trip.
Use free attack from Imp Trip to Disarm.
Ask for surrender.

And if they refuse, you are free to use the AoO from them getting up to attack.
I actually meant the disarm to be the extra attack from the trip, sorry if I didn't make that clear. As to whether I could do all that as an AoO depends on whether the foe provokes one (as my character will only have a 5 feet reach).

Of course I could always Ready a trip attack :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DigitalMage 10-26-07, 12:13 PM	The Improved Trip feat states "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt." If my trip attack is made as an Attack of Opportunity, do I still get that extra attack? E.g. My character has a flail and the feat Improved Trip. A foe tries to attack me unarmed provoking an AoO which I use to trip him, do I then get another attack which I can use to injure him? And if so does that second attack benefit from the opponent having -4 AC for being prone? What about if the foe isn't actively engaging me in melee but is moving through my threatened area - if I trip him with a melee weapon as an AoO is that considered to be "in melee combat" and would I get the second attack?
mvincent 10-26-07, 02:21 PM	If my trip attack is made as an Attack of Opportunity, do I still get that extra attack?Yes. What about if the foe isn't actively engaging me in melee but is moving through my threatened area - if I trip him with a melee weapon as an AoO is that considered to be "in melee combat" and would I get the second attack?Yes.
br13 10-26-07, 06:48 PM	does that second attack benefit from the opponent having -4 AC for being prone? I agree with the previous poster and another 'yes' from me.
eamon 10-27-07, 09:53 AM	Yes and Yes ;-) The only exception to Improved Trip's extra attack that I'm aware of is Whirlwind attack, which explicitly denies all bonus follow-on attacks (clearly hinting at cleave but also Improved Trip there). Even there, some people rule that Improved Trip's attack isn't "extra" or "bonus" and so that you get it even with a whirlwind attack. In all other cases you do get the bonus attack. There are some feats that allow ranged tripping, and in such a case perhaps you're not in melee combat and you'd then not get the follow-up attack either.
Sildatorak 10-27-07, 11:33 AM	You also won't get a bonus attack if your trip was already a bonus on top of a melee attack. This is a pretty rare thing, though, I can only think of an awakened wolf, werewolf, or possibly someone with the 3.0 knockdown feat from one of the splatbooks doing that.
DigitalMage 10-29-07, 09:55 AM	Okay, thanks! That makes it a good way to damage a high AC foe - a touch attack and opposed strength check to trip them, then attack with a -4 AC :)
Empirate 11-07-07, 10:17 AM	It's actually more a potentially good way of hurting high AC opponents. The more rolls you have to make, even if all of these are easier than the one attack roll (without +4 for prone defender), the more chances you'll have to botch one. The important thing about prone defenders is not only the -4 to AC, but also the move action they use to stand up and the AoO(s) that standing up provokes.
PhaedrusXY 11-07-07, 02:53 PM	It's actually more a potentially good way of hurting high AC opponents. The more rolls you have to make, even if all of these are easier than the one attack roll (without +4 for prone defender), the more chances you'll have to botch one. The important thing about prone defenders is not only the -4 to AC, but also the move action they use to stand up and the AoO(s) that standing up provokes.Are you talking about critical fumble house rules here? Because otherwise, what you're saying doesn't really seem to make much sense. A "botch" just means you miss. Yes, if you get more attacks then you have more chances to "botch", but you also have more chances to hit, or even roll a natural 20 and automatically hit.
mvincent 11-07-07, 03:04 PM	Are you talking about critical fumble house rules here? I think he was just talking about a regular miss. Since damaging someone with improved trip requires 4 separate rolls (touch attack, your str check, opponent's str check, then a regular attack), chances are that at least one of these rolls will go wonky (especially since a d20 roll has no bell curve).
PhaedrusXY 11-07-07, 04:24 PM	That's true. I see the point now.
BoringInfoGuy 11-07-07, 04:44 PM	It's actually more a potentially good way of hurting high AC opponents. The more rolls you have to make, even if all of these are easier than the one attack roll (without +4 for prone defender), the more chances you'll have to botch one. The important thing about prone defenders is not only the -4 to AC, but also the move action they use to stand up and the AoO(s) that standing up provokes. Just remember that the Attack of Opportunity you can make against a prone defender getting up can't be another trip attack. The attack interrupts the action that provokes it before it can be completed, and you can't trip an already prone defender. Of course, if it's a spiked chain tripper, that makes a great time to attempt a disarm. The chain gives a bonus that stacks with the normal bonus to two handed weapons used in disarm attempts. And the Attack of Opportunity from trying to retrieve his weapon can be used to trip him again. . .
DigitalMage 11-08-07, 12:51 PM	Of course, if it's a spiked chain tripper, that makes a great time to attempt a disarm. The chain gives a bonus that stacks with the normal bonus to two handed weapons used in disarm attempts. And the Attack of Opportunity from trying to retrieve his weapon can be used to trip him again. . . This is exactly the tactics I will be using for my Rogue1 / Paladin2 although I will be using a masterwork flail (which also gives a bonus to disarm!). trip the opponent, disarm them and give them a chance to surrender :)
BoringInfoGuy 11-09-07, 02:28 PM	This is exactly the tactics I will be using for my Rogue1 / Paladin2 although I will be using a masterwork flail (which also gives a bonus to disarm!). trip the opponent, disarm them and give them a chance to surrender :) That's exactly the mix of dirty fighting and honorable combat I'd expect from a rogue pally combo. I was thinking about it, and you can speed that up a round. With the Improved trip feat, that extra attack doesn't have to be an attack roll. The extra attack is used just as if you hadn't used your attack to trip your opponent. Enemy provokes AoO. Use AoO to trip. Use free attack from Imp Trip to Disarm. Ask for surrender. And if they refuse, you are free to use the AoO from them getting up to attack.
DigitalMage 11-14-07, 11:43 AM	I was thinking about it, and you can speed that up a round. With the Improved trip feat, that extra attack doesn't have to be an attack roll. The extra attack is used just as if you hadn't used your attack to trip your opponent. Enemy provokes AoO. Use AoO to trip. Use free attack from Imp Trip to Disarm. Ask for surrender. And if they refuse, you are free to use the AoO from them getting up to attack. I actually meant the disarm to be the extra attack from the trip, sorry if I didn't make that clear. As to whether I could do all that as an AoO depends on whether the foe provokes one (as my character will only have a 5 feet reach). Of course I could always Ready a trip attack :)