Falling down the stairs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Falling down the stairs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Androcus Divinicus
07-18-07, 06:14 AM How would you handle falling down a flight of stairs? I realize it's a situation that would rarely come up, and would probably involve some sort of balance check or reflex save depending upon the circumstance, but let's just say for the sake of argument that the check (or whatever else) has failed and a character is falling down a flight of stairs. How would you assign damage?

Regards,
Justin.
Kouk
07-18-07, 07:09 AM From DMG:

Stairs
The usual way to connect different levels of a dungeon is with stairs. Straight stairways, spiral staircases, or stairwells with multiple landings between flights of stairs are all common in dungeons, as are ramps (sometimes with an incline so slight that it can be difficult to notice; Spot DC 15). Stairs are important accessways, and are sometimes guarded or trapped. Traps on stairs often cause intruders to slide or fall down to the bottom, where a pit, spikes, a pool of acid, or some other danger awaits.

Gradual Stairs
Stairs that rise less than 5 feet for every 5 feet of horizontal distance they cover don’t affect movement, but characters who attack a foe below them gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls from being on higher ground. Most stairs in dungeons are gradual, except for spiral stairs (see below).

Steep Stairs
Characters moving up steep stairs (which rise at a 45-degree angle or steeper) must spend 2 squares of movement to enter each square of stairs. Characters running or charging down steep stairs must succeed on a DC 10 Balance check upon entering the first steep stairs square. Characters who fail stumble and must end their movement 1d2×5 feet later. Characters who fail by 5 or more take 1d6 points of damage and fall prone in the square where they end their movement. Steep stairs increase the DC of Tumble checks by 5.

Spiral Stairs
This form of steep stairs is designed to make defending a fortress easier. Characters gain cover against foes below them on spiral stairs because they can easily duck around the staircase’s central support.

Railings and Low Walls
Stairs that are open to large rooms often have railings or low walls. They function as described for ledges.
Androcus Divinicus
07-18-07, 08:06 AM Well, yes ... I was aware of that. But I was refering more specifically to a situation where someone was say, bullrushed over the top of a flight of stairs. Or, perhaps they fell from a point on to a flight of stairs. Clearly their movement doesn't automatically stop at that point. It may, it may not ... but I was asking, assuming it doesn't and they begin to fall down the stairs, what kind of damage would one assign, and how would you determine when and how they stop?

J.
eamon
07-18-07, 08:48 AM I would just always use the rules for steep stairs, and further rule that it's difficult terrain. Incidentally, I don't know where the DMG writers thought it normal that movement is unaffected by "gradual stairs". Uhm... that makes no sense at all. Ever try running up gradual stairs? At full speed? Right.

Normal falling damage is 1d6 per 10 feet. You're unlike to fall much further than that, so a flat 1d6 damage is reasonably consistent (though falling damage is low in D&D anyhow - it should probably be quadratic, not linear, I think). To keep things simple I would just rule 1d6 damage, and for particularly nasty cases 2d6. It's still ridiculously little, however. My feeling is that it should be more, but that it's probably better to sacrifice some realism for the sake of simplicity.

Other options:
- you fall half as far as the movement speed you had when running/being pushed over the ledge. i.e. A character with 30ft movement speeds falls 15ft far, rounded down to 10ft and 1d6 falling damage.
-Falling down stairs is often a reasonably slow process (in terms of 6 second rounds anyway), so you could rule that the fall continues next round for up to a move action unless the character succeeds on a balance check DC 15) That way the damage dealt is somewhat higher and the cost includes a move action; which is nasty.
Nom
07-18-07, 09:38 AM Incidentally, I don't know where the DMG writers thought it normal that movement is unaffected by "gradual stairs". Uhm... that makes no sense at all. Ever try running up gradual stairs? At full speed? Right.Running? It's probably generous. Anything else it's probably a reasonable approximation. Although the stairs make your footing a little more treacherous, it's probably no worse than natural dirt, and fighting is going to be a lot more physically intensive than simply moving up and down the stairs.
Kouk
07-18-07, 10:38 AM Well, yes ... I was aware of that. But I was refering more specifically to a situation where someone was say, bullrushed over the top of a flight of stairs. Or, perhaps they fell from a point on to a flight of stairs. Clearly their movement doesn't automatically stop at that point. It may, it may not ... but I was asking, assuming it doesn't and they begin to fall down the stairs, what kind of damage would one assign, and how would you determine when and how they stop?

J.

Well then, in that case I would say just parse some of the existing rules. If they are pushed down the stairs, or dropped onto stairs from above, I would say they roll down for 1d2 X 10 ft as if they stumbled, and then they fall prone and take 1d6 damage. Maybe a Reflex save for half damage and half distance traveled.

Keep in mind that falling down stairs may seem like "little" damage to an adventurer, but if you take the baseline Level 1 Commoner (with 1d4 hit points), 1d6 damage for falling 10 feet down the stairs may actually be a bit excessive. If you consider most adventurers wear armor of some sort, it isn't that unreasonable that it is such a small amount of damage.

As for going up gradual stairs being slower than the normal "hustle" adventurers move at during combat, that would only really be the case if they attempted to step on every single step (that really can slow you down). I think it is assumed that when quickly going up gradual stairs you skip several at a time, which wouldn't be significantly slower than just jogging on the ground.
eamon
07-18-07, 05:40 PM When running up or down stairs of say a 90% incline, which the DMG considers gradual, I think 120 ft/round is undoable really. You just can't place your feet anywhere first of all, because of the step boundaries, and 90% is actually quite a bit too (say 40 degrees..). If you can run 120 ft /round up a 90% incline, you can run quite a bit more on a flat surface. I'm just saying that gradual is not what the DMG claims is gradual - not even close.

You probably could move at the speed of a normal hustle... if you focus all your attention of the placement of your feet and go as fast as you can... which is simply running on difficult terrain ;-).

Can you imagine running down a long, almost 45 degree straight staircase at 12 mph without falling for a minute (which is a damn long staircase :-)). I can't.

Course we don't need to let realism intrude on our games and it's not a problem to let it work as written, I was just amused by the DMG's approximations here ;-). But these kind of things in the DMG's are just hints, guidelines for dealing with terrain. You can do whatever you want to of course.
eamon
07-18-07, 05:46 PM Keep in mind that falling down stairs may seem like "little" damage to an adventurer, but if you take the baseline Level 1 Commoner (with 1d4 hit points), 1d6 damage for falling 10 feet down the stairs may actually be a bit excessive. If you consider most adventurers wear armor of some sort, it isn't that unreasonable that it is such a small amount of damage.

People can actually die from falling that far, that's not hard at all - if you're unprepared and have a little bit of bad luck. But if you see it coming even a little bit, perhaps non-lethal damage is better. I guess it depends how uncontrolled the fall is... Somebody charging you in fullplate (e.g. bullrush) and forcefully and quickly pushing you into an uncontrolled tumble down might very well be very lethal, even at not much more than 5 ft.

In D&D, a 10 ft. uncontrolled fall is potentially lethal to a commoner, and I think a staircase fall shouldn't be much better, but that's a question of flavor.

So I guess the question is, how lethal do you want to make falls in general?

I'm pretty sure that falls are generally not nearly lethal enough in D&D, so you'd be pretty consistent making these mostly harmless too. Dying by falling down stairs isn't my idea of heroic fantasy anyhow :D
Mock26
07-18-07, 05:55 PM I basically use three types of stairs. These are Gradual, Normal, and Steep. Gradual stairs rise 5' for every 10' forward. Normal rise 10' for every 10' forward. Steep rise 20' for every 10' forward. They are, in essense, 22.5 degrees, 45 degree, and 67.5 degree angles. Falling down a Gradual flight is 1/4 falling damage. Falling down a Normal flight is 1/2 falling damage. Falling down a Steep flight is 3/4 damage. I know that this does not take into account the possible extra damage of smacking into the sharp corners of the various steps along the way down your fall, but it is a simple method that is easy to keep track of and incorporate.

Take care and have a great day....

ciao,
john.
PenderGrass
07-18-07, 06:05 PM Dying by falling down stairs isn't my idea of heroic fantasy anyhow :D
Unless they were evil stairs.

:dragon:
****
DrMorganes
07-18-07, 06:52 PM I'd say 1d6 falling damage if fine.

If you're feeling generous, allow a DC 15 Tumble Check to avoid damage or a Reflex save for half.
Phrennzy
07-19-07, 10:30 AM I have never, in my long history of playing D&D, had anyone, PC, NPC, or monster, fall down stairs in any game as either player or DM.

I guess I have been missing out.
Androcus Divinicus
07-19-07, 12:33 PM I have never, in my long history of playing D&D, had anyone, PC, NPC, or monster, fall down stairs in any game as either player or DM.

I guess I have been missing out.

Well. Neither have I actually ... in the interest of full disclosure ... here is the round-about process that brought on this question:

I was browsing the forums, and went downstairs to get some food. When I came back up (all lights off), a brief image of a generic horror movie scene flashed through my mind, and I thought about falling down stairs ... since I was in D&D mode anyway, it naturally transfered to the forums.

Though ... it would be a possibility, yes? Hide at the top of the stairs and use your surprise round action to bullrush someone and push them down the stairs? :) Yeah.

Also ... laughing at the evil stairs comment by PenderGrass. :) What an interesting idea.

J.
KoraktheBarbarin
07-19-07, 12:42 PM What about using the classic stairs turn into ramp trap, kinda like falling down stairs.:D
PenderGrass
07-19-07, 12:59 PM Also ... laughing at the evil stairs comment by PenderGrass. :) What an interesting idea.
And quite easy to implement.

Just imagine the players' stories told for years afterwards - "Aye, remember those stairs? They were so..... so..... evil."

:dragon:
****
Kouk
07-19-07, 01:25 PM People can actually die from falling that far, that's not hard at all - if you're unprepared and have a little bit of bad luck.

I know in real life you can, but you pretty much have to land right on your head (and twist your neck). With these super-adventurers who get stabbed and exploded constantly, I think they should be able to tuck and roll at least, if they aren't paralyzed.

If a person was dressed in full football-playing gear (let alone full plate or a magical field of force), I think he would be very hard pressed to kill himself falling down 10 feet of stairs.

And Eamon, I have no idea what you mean by a "90%" incline. If you meant 90 degrees, that would be straight up. Gradual is "Stairs that rise less than 5 feet for every 5 feet of horizontal distance they cover" which means less than a 45 degree angle. I will grant you that even a 40 degree angle staircase would probably still impede movement, but 20 degrees won't slow you tremendously. You will still need to expend somewhat more energy for going up rather than horizontally, but these rules are an abstraction to keep things simple.

With stairs that are "steep" (45 degrees or more, presumably up to less than 90 degrees, because that would be a wall) cannot be climbed by Running or Charging, because they impede movement (take 2 squares). You can Run or Charge down them, but that takes the Balance check or else you may fall.

You can invent new stair categories if you want I guess, but stairs are pretty rare for combats.
eamon
07-20-07, 11:08 AM A 45% angle is a 100% incline. A 90% incline is a rise of 90 ft over a distance of 100ft. When walking up a hill, you'll notice that 15% is quite noticable, and 30% actually has an impact. We'll have to agree to disagree then, since I have no real data to back up my stance. However, I don't find the DMG's guesstimation that a 100% incline (i.e. 45 degrees) is borderline noticable. I'ld be willing to bet that 20 degrees (36%) makes an impact, and anything with steps whatsoever will make running more difficult.

I wonder how we could test this? I think I'm going to look for a long staircase around here sometime :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Androcus Divinicus 07-18-07, 06:14 AM	How would you handle falling down a flight of stairs? I realize it's a situation that would rarely come up, and would probably involve some sort of balance check or reflex save depending upon the circumstance, but let's just say for the sake of argument that the check (or whatever else) has failed and a character is falling down a flight of stairs. How would you assign damage? Regards, Justin.
Kouk 07-18-07, 07:09 AM	From DMG: Stairs The usual way to connect different levels of a dungeon is with stairs. Straight stairways, spiral staircases, or stairwells with multiple landings between flights of stairs are all common in dungeons, as are ramps (sometimes with an incline so slight that it can be difficult to notice; Spot DC 15). Stairs are important accessways, and are sometimes guarded or trapped. Traps on stairs often cause intruders to slide or fall down to the bottom, where a pit, spikes, a pool of acid, or some other danger awaits. Gradual Stairs Stairs that rise less than 5 feet for every 5 feet of horizontal distance they cover don’t affect movement, but characters who attack a foe below them gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls from being on higher ground. Most stairs in dungeons are gradual, except for spiral stairs (see below). Steep Stairs Characters moving up steep stairs (which rise at a 45-degree angle or steeper) must spend 2 squares of movement to enter each square of stairs. Characters running or charging down steep stairs must succeed on a DC 10 Balance check upon entering the first steep stairs square. Characters who fail stumble and must end their movement 1d2×5 feet later. Characters who fail by 5 or more take 1d6 points of damage and fall prone in the square where they end their movement. Steep stairs increase the DC of Tumble checks by 5. Spiral Stairs This form of steep stairs is designed to make defending a fortress easier. Characters gain cover against foes below them on spiral stairs because they can easily duck around the staircase’s central support. Railings and Low Walls Stairs that are open to large rooms often have railings or low walls. They function as described for ledges.
Androcus Divinicus 07-18-07, 08:06 AM	Well, yes ... I was aware of that. But I was refering more specifically to a situation where someone was say, bullrushed over the top of a flight of stairs. Or, perhaps they fell from a point on to a flight of stairs. Clearly their movement doesn't automatically stop at that point. It may, it may not ... but I was asking, assuming it doesn't and they begin to fall down the stairs, what kind of damage would one assign, and how would you determine when and how they stop? J.
eamon 07-18-07, 08:48 AM	I would just always use the rules for steep stairs, and further rule that it's difficult terrain. Incidentally, I don't know where the DMG writers thought it normal that movement is unaffected by "gradual stairs". Uhm... that makes no sense at all. Ever try running up gradual stairs? At full speed? Right. Normal falling damage is 1d6 per 10 feet. You're unlike to fall much further than that, so a flat 1d6 damage is reasonably consistent (though falling damage is low in D&D anyhow - it should probably be quadratic, not linear, I think). To keep things simple I would just rule 1d6 damage, and for particularly nasty cases 2d6. It's still ridiculously little, however. My feeling is that it should be more, but that it's probably better to sacrifice some realism for the sake of simplicity. Other options: - you fall half as far as the movement speed you had when running/being pushed over the ledge. i.e. A character with 30ft movement speeds falls 15ft far, rounded down to 10ft and 1d6 falling damage. -Falling down stairs is often a reasonably slow process (in terms of 6 second rounds anyway), so you could rule that the fall continues next round for up to a move action unless the character succeeds on a balance check DC 15) That way the damage dealt is somewhat higher and the cost includes a move action; which is nasty.
Nom 07-18-07, 09:38 AM	Incidentally, I don't know where the DMG writers thought it normal that movement is unaffected by "gradual stairs". Uhm... that makes no sense at all. Ever try running up gradual stairs? At full speed? Right.Running? It's probably generous. Anything else it's probably a reasonable approximation. Although the stairs make your footing a little more treacherous, it's probably no worse than natural dirt, and fighting is going to be a lot more physically intensive than simply moving up and down the stairs.
Kouk 07-18-07, 10:38 AM	Well, yes ... I was aware of that. But I was refering more specifically to a situation where someone was say, bullrushed over the top of a flight of stairs. Or, perhaps they fell from a point on to a flight of stairs. Clearly their movement doesn't automatically stop at that point. It may, it may not ... but I was asking, assuming it doesn't and they begin to fall down the stairs, what kind of damage would one assign, and how would you determine when and how they stop? J. Well then, in that case I would say just parse some of the existing rules. If they are pushed down the stairs, or dropped onto stairs from above, I would say they roll down for 1d2 X 10 ft as if they stumbled, and then they fall prone and take 1d6 damage. Maybe a Reflex save for half damage and half distance traveled. Keep in mind that falling down stairs may seem like "little" damage to an adventurer, but if you take the baseline Level 1 Commoner (with 1d4 hit points), 1d6 damage for falling 10 feet down the stairs may actually be a bit excessive. If you consider most adventurers wear armor of some sort, it isn't that unreasonable that it is such a small amount of damage. As for going up gradual stairs being slower than the normal "hustle" adventurers move at during combat, that would only really be the case if they attempted to step on every single step (that really can slow you down). I think it is assumed that when quickly going up gradual stairs you skip several at a time, which wouldn't be significantly slower than just jogging on the ground.
eamon 07-18-07, 05:40 PM	When running up or down stairs of say a 90% incline, which the DMG considers gradual, I think 120 ft/round is undoable really. You just can't place your feet anywhere first of all, because of the step boundaries, and 90% is actually quite a bit too (say 40 degrees..). If you can run 120 ft /round up a 90% incline, you can run quite a bit more on a flat surface. I'm just saying that gradual is not what the DMG claims is gradual - not even close. You probably could move at the speed of a normal hustle... if you focus all your attention of the placement of your feet and go as fast as you can... which is simply running on difficult terrain ;-). Can you imagine running down a long, almost 45 degree straight staircase at 12 mph without falling for a minute (which is a damn long staircase :-)). I can't. Course we don't need to let realism intrude on our games and it's not a problem to let it work as written, I was just amused by the DMG's approximations here ;-). But these kind of things in the DMG's are just hints, guidelines for dealing with terrain. You can do whatever you want to of course.
eamon 07-18-07, 05:46 PM	Keep in mind that falling down stairs may seem like "little" damage to an adventurer, but if you take the baseline Level 1 Commoner (with 1d4 hit points), 1d6 damage for falling 10 feet down the stairs may actually be a bit excessive. If you consider most adventurers wear armor of some sort, it isn't that unreasonable that it is such a small amount of damage. People can actually die from falling that far, that's not hard at all - if you're unprepared and have a little bit of bad luck. But if you see it coming even a little bit, perhaps non-lethal damage is better. I guess it depends how uncontrolled the fall is... Somebody charging you in fullplate (e.g. bullrush) and forcefully and quickly pushing you into an uncontrolled tumble down might very well be very lethal, even at not much more than 5 ft. In D&D, a 10 ft. uncontrolled fall is potentially lethal to a commoner, and I think a staircase fall shouldn't be much better, but that's a question of flavor. So I guess the question is, how lethal do you want to make falls in general? I'm pretty sure that falls are generally not nearly lethal enough in D&D, so you'd be pretty consistent making these mostly harmless too. Dying by falling down stairs isn't my idea of heroic fantasy anyhow :D
Mock26 07-18-07, 05:55 PM	I basically use three types of stairs. These are Gradual, Normal, and Steep. Gradual stairs rise 5' for every 10' forward. Normal rise 10' for every 10' forward. Steep rise 20' for every 10' forward. They are, in essense, 22.5 degrees, 45 degree, and 67.5 degree angles. Falling down a Gradual flight is 1/4 falling damage. Falling down a Normal flight is 1/2 falling damage. Falling down a Steep flight is 3/4 damage. I know that this does not take into account the possible extra damage of smacking into the sharp corners of the various steps along the way down your fall, but it is a simple method that is easy to keep track of and incorporate. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
PenderGrass 07-18-07, 06:05 PM	Dying by falling down stairs isn't my idea of heroic fantasy anyhow :D Unless they were evil stairs. :dragon: ****
DrMorganes 07-18-07, 06:52 PM	I'd say 1d6 falling damage if fine. If you're feeling generous, allow a DC 15 Tumble Check to avoid damage or a Reflex save for half.
Phrennzy 07-19-07, 10:30 AM	I have never, in my long history of playing D&D, had anyone, PC, NPC, or monster, fall down stairs in any game as either player or DM. I guess I have been missing out.
Androcus Divinicus 07-19-07, 12:33 PM	I have never, in my long history of playing D&D, had anyone, PC, NPC, or monster, fall down stairs in any game as either player or DM. I guess I have been missing out. Well. Neither have I actually ... in the interest of full disclosure ... here is the round-about process that brought on this question: I was browsing the forums, and went downstairs to get some food. When I came back up (all lights off), a brief image of a generic horror movie scene flashed through my mind, and I thought about falling down stairs ... since I was in D&D mode anyway, it naturally transfered to the forums. Though ... it would be a possibility, yes? Hide at the top of the stairs and use your surprise round action to bullrush someone and push them down the stairs? :) Yeah. Also ... laughing at the evil stairs comment by PenderGrass. :) What an interesting idea. J.
KoraktheBarbarin 07-19-07, 12:42 PM	What about using the classic stairs turn into ramp trap, kinda like falling down stairs.:D
PenderGrass 07-19-07, 12:59 PM	Also ... laughing at the evil stairs comment by PenderGrass. :) What an interesting idea. And quite easy to implement. Just imagine the players' stories told for years afterwards - "Aye, remember those stairs? They were so..... so..... evil." :dragon: ****
Kouk 07-19-07, 01:25 PM	People can actually die from falling that far, that's not hard at all - if you're unprepared and have a little bit of bad luck. I know in real life you can, but you pretty much have to land right on your head (and twist your neck). With these super-adventurers who get stabbed and exploded constantly, I think they should be able to tuck and roll at least, if they aren't paralyzed. If a person was dressed in full football-playing gear (let alone full plate or a magical field of force), I think he would be very hard pressed to kill himself falling down 10 feet of stairs. And Eamon, I have no idea what you mean by a "90%" incline. If you meant 90 degrees, that would be straight up. Gradual is "Stairs that rise less than 5 feet for every 5 feet of horizontal distance they cover" which means less than a 45 degree angle. I will grant you that even a 40 degree angle staircase would probably still impede movement, but 20 degrees won't slow you tremendously. You will still need to expend somewhat more energy for going up rather than horizontally, but these rules are an abstraction to keep things simple. With stairs that are "steep" (45 degrees or more, presumably up to less than 90 degrees, because that would be a wall) cannot be climbed by Running or Charging, because they impede movement (take 2 squares). You can Run or Charge down them, but that takes the Balance check or else you may fall. You can invent new stair categories if you want I guess, but stairs are pretty rare for combats.
eamon 07-20-07, 11:08 AM	A 45% angle is a 100% incline. A 90% incline is a rise of 90 ft over a distance of 100ft. When walking up a hill, you'll notice that 15% is quite noticable, and 30% actually has an impact. We'll have to agree to disagree then, since I have no real data to back up my stance. However, I don't find the DMG's guesstimation that a 100% incline (i.e. 45 degrees) is borderline noticable. I'ld be willing to bet that 20 degrees (36%) makes an impact, and anything with steps whatsoever will make running more difficult. I wonder how we could test this? I think I'm going to look for a long staircase around here sometime :D