Firey Burst, Fireball and Vampires Spawn [Archive] - Wizards Community

Firey Burst, Fireball and Vampires Spawn [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ravade
12-02-07, 05:26 PM Allright. I have (well, had) a player that abused this feat something awful. But, he wanted to argue that the 'five foot radius' was a three by three foot square, like some sort of mini-fireball. I said it was one square. Am I wrong on this?

Now fireball. My gamers.. love this spell. And I am begining to hate it. They want to argue that a fireball is 'intangeable' until it hits where it is supposed to hit, then it sort of detonates. I say, they have to have line of sight to the 'blast point' - and that PC's block said line of sight. What are your feelings on this?

Now as to 'had' a player. I now have that character dead. A vampire NPC of mine obliterated this poor Wizard. Now, when I have the former PC come back as an NPC vampire spawn, cause I am evil like that and all -- it raises a few questions. One, when they kill the main vampire NPC, what happens to the spawn he created? And while I am on the topic, how are vampires even created in Eberon, if anyone knows?
pinkbunny
12-02-07, 05:37 PM I believe 5 ft radius is a 2x2 square, as you center things at a point.

All spells, uness they say differently, require LOS.

PCs don't block LOS though, unless they've somehow turned into scenery. Enemies don't either since it's travelling at 17 bazillion miles per hour or something. The fireball explodes if it strikes something though, with the same effect as if it had hit it's intended target. Read the spell description for more info.
Slimgauge
12-02-07, 05:38 PM Allright. I have (well, had) a player that abused this feat something awful. But, he wanted to argue that the 'five foot radius' was a three by three foot square, like some sort of mini-fireball. I said it was one square. Am I wrong on this?

From the online SRD, Magic section, area effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area)

Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.

You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell’s area, anything within that square is within the spell’s area. If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.

If something has a 5' radius, it affects a 2x2 square grid around the center intersection.

Now fireball. My gamers.. love this spell. And I am begining to hate it. They want to argue that a fireball is 'intangeable' until it hits where it is supposed to hit, then it sort of detonates. I say, they have to have line of sight to the 'blast point' - and that PC's block said line of sight. What are your feelings on this?

From the online SRD spell of fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm)

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

It's a tangible pea-sized bead. If you were to use a delayed blast fireball, you could even pick it up and move it (but you might set it off by doing so). You need a Line of Fire, but not necessarily a Line of Sight. You could fire blindly into a fog cloud, for example. Firing one thru an occupied square works just like firing an arrow thru an occupied square, see the rules on cover.

I'll pass on the vampire spawn question.
pinkbunny
12-02-07, 05:42 PM And the vampire question is pure DM's choice.

Though, characters count as cover when in melee, or when being used as shields, in which case they'd be within 5ft of your target, and it'd be immaterial. Besides, they actually wouldn't do anything, as it's a - to an attack roll, which you don't have to make with a fireball, unless you have to hit an arrow slit or so.
Ravade
12-02-07, 05:43 PM Hey, you managed to answer pretty much everything I had so far. I greatly appreciate it. I really wish I would have asked that sort of stuff while the character was still alive, but now that I plan on using him to be a reoccurring NPC.. It's good to have those rules on hand.
Necroramo
12-02-07, 09:45 PM The spawn will be given its own free will.

However, since you punched the wizard to death, it's a spawn without any of its old class abilities. It would be really awkward for the character, but if he REALLY wanted his old character maintained the vampire spawn (with LA it's an ECL 8) could take the three levels in Emancipated Spawn and keep chugging away. However, you'd only snag 5th-level spells in the end, so if your wizard wanted to not be horrible he could just take levels in a more martial-oriented class.
Marcus Majarra
12-02-07, 10:01 PM Also, in Eberron, vampires are created just like in any other setting.
weasel0
12-03-07, 01:35 PM I think you're confusing 5' radius (a 2x2) with a 5' diameter(5' sq). And he(3x3) is trying to munchkin you with math-fu.
Tedronai
12-04-07, 06:58 PM I think you're confusing 5' radius (a 2x2) with a 5' diameter(5' sq). And he(3x3) is trying to munchkin you with math-fu.

Or is simply confusing the matter with a 5' radius centered on a medium or smaller individual, in which case the effect is as a 3x3 square missing its corners. (a template for such a situation is located in those wonderful pages at the back of the DMG, along with creature space examples and grid maps)
Marcus Majarra
12-04-07, 07:48 PM Or is simply confusing the matter with a 5' radius centered on a medium or smaller individual, in which case the effect is as a 3x3 square missing its corners. (a template for such a situation is located in those wonderful pages at the back of the DMG, along with creature space examples and grid maps)
You're confusing the reach diagrams with the spell area diagrams. The area diagrams can be found on pages 305 through 307, whereas the reach diagrams are found on pages 308 through 310.
Merestil Haye
12-04-07, 07:55 PM As far as Fireball is concerned, thr rule is that you need Line of Effect from yourself to the location you intend to set the Fireball off.

Line of Effect is blocked by a solid object in your path. Player Characters do not count as solid objects in this context. Very very few creatures do - the Gelatinous Cube is one such.

A wall with a hole as little as 1 square foot allows Line of Effect to pass through. (That means that 96% of the surface can be solid wall, and spells can still pass through freely.) PCs don't fill up that much of their space, and you can cast a Fireball past the PCs safely in almost all cases.
Nom
12-05-07, 08:38 AM Adding to what Merestil said, ray and area spells explicitly do not need line of sight. Ray spells are subject to concealment miss chances, so if you don't have LoS there's a 50% miss chance before you even get to the ranged touch attack. Area spells don't suffer concealment miss chances, but still need LoE. Ray spells are targeted using the ranged weapon rules: use those rules to figure line of effect, cover, etc..

As a special exception, you can make a ranged touch attack roll to shoot a fireball though a hole that would normally block LoE (such as an arrow slit). If you "miss", it detonates at the blockage. This exception is unique to fireball.

For completeness, "target" spells need both LoS and LoE, though you can substitute touch for LoS. Note that the destination of teleport spells is not covered by these rules - most need neither LoS nor LoE - but the targets of the spell (ie who gets teleported) are.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ravade 12-02-07, 05:26 PM	Allright. I have (well, had) a player that abused this feat something awful. But, he wanted to argue that the 'five foot radius' was a three by three foot square, like some sort of mini-fireball. I said it was one square. Am I wrong on this? Now fireball. My gamers.. love this spell. And I am begining to hate it. They want to argue that a fireball is 'intangeable' until it hits where it is supposed to hit, then it sort of detonates. I say, they have to have line of sight to the 'blast point' - and that PC's block said line of sight. What are your feelings on this? Now as to 'had' a player. I now have that character dead. A vampire NPC of mine obliterated this poor Wizard. Now, when I have the former PC come back as an NPC vampire spawn, cause I am evil like that and all -- it raises a few questions. One, when they kill the main vampire NPC, what happens to the spawn he created? And while I am on the topic, how are vampires even created in Eberon, if anyone knows?
pinkbunny 12-02-07, 05:37 PM	I believe 5 ft radius is a 2x2 square, as you center things at a point. All spells, uness they say differently, require LOS. PCs don't block LOS though, unless they've somehow turned into scenery. Enemies don't either since it's travelling at 17 bazillion miles per hour or something. The fireball explodes if it strikes something though, with the same effect as if it had hit it's intended target. Read the spell description for more info.
Slimgauge 12-02-07, 05:38 PM	Allright. I have (well, had) a player that abused this feat something awful. But, he wanted to argue that the 'five foot radius' was a three by three foot square, like some sort of mini-fireball. I said it was one square. Am I wrong on this? From the online SRD, Magic section, area effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area) Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below. Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection. You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell’s area, anything within that square is within the spell’s area. If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell. If something has a 5' radius, it affects a 2x2 square grid around the center intersection. Now fireball. My gamers.. love this spell. And I am begining to hate it. They want to argue that a fireball is 'intangeable' until it hits where it is supposed to hit, then it sort of detonates. I say, they have to have line of sight to the 'blast point' - and that PC's block said line of sight. What are your feelings on this? From the online SRD spell of fireball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm) You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely. It's a tangible pea-sized bead. If you were to use a delayed blast fireball, you could even pick it up and move it (but you might set it off by doing so). You need a Line of Fire, but not necessarily a Line of Sight. You could fire blindly into a fog cloud, for example. Firing one thru an occupied square works just like firing an arrow thru an occupied square, see the rules on cover. I'll pass on the vampire spawn question.
pinkbunny 12-02-07, 05:42 PM	And the vampire question is pure DM's choice. Though, characters count as cover when in melee, or when being used as shields, in which case they'd be within 5ft of your target, and it'd be immaterial. Besides, they actually wouldn't do anything, as it's a - to an attack roll, which you don't have to make with a fireball, unless you have to hit an arrow slit or so.
Ravade 12-02-07, 05:43 PM	Hey, you managed to answer pretty much everything I had so far. I greatly appreciate it. I really wish I would have asked that sort of stuff while the character was still alive, but now that I plan on using him to be a reoccurring NPC.. It's good to have those rules on hand.
Necroramo 12-02-07, 09:45 PM	The spawn will be given its own free will. However, since you punched the wizard to death, it's a spawn without any of its old class abilities. It would be really awkward for the character, but if he REALLY wanted his old character maintained the vampire spawn (with LA it's an ECL 8) could take the three levels in Emancipated Spawn and keep chugging away. However, you'd only snag 5th-level spells in the end, so if your wizard wanted to not be horrible he could just take levels in a more martial-oriented class.
Marcus Majarra 12-02-07, 10:01 PM	Also, in Eberron, vampires are created just like in any other setting.
weasel0 12-03-07, 01:35 PM	I think you're confusing 5' radius (a 2x2) with a 5' diameter(5' sq). And he(3x3) is trying to munchkin you with math-fu.
Tedronai 12-04-07, 06:58 PM	I think you're confusing 5' radius (a 2x2) with a 5' diameter(5' sq). And he(3x3) is trying to munchkin you with math-fu. Or is simply confusing the matter with a 5' radius centered on a medium or smaller individual, in which case the effect is as a 3x3 square missing its corners. (a template for such a situation is located in those wonderful pages at the back of the DMG, along with creature space examples and grid maps)
Marcus Majarra 12-04-07, 07:48 PM	Or is simply confusing the matter with a 5' radius centered on a medium or smaller individual, in which case the effect is as a 3x3 square missing its corners. (a template for such a situation is located in those wonderful pages at the back of the DMG, along with creature space examples and grid maps) You're confusing the reach diagrams with the spell area diagrams. The area diagrams can be found on pages 305 through 307, whereas the reach diagrams are found on pages 308 through 310.
Merestil Haye 12-04-07, 07:55 PM	As far as Fireball is concerned, thr rule is that you need Line of Effect from yourself to the location you intend to set the Fireball off. Line of Effect is blocked by a solid object in your path. Player Characters do not count as solid objects in this context. Very very few creatures do - the Gelatinous Cube is one such. A wall with a hole as little as 1 square foot allows Line of Effect to pass through. (That means that 96% of the surface can be solid wall, and spells can still pass through freely.) PCs don't fill up that much of their space, and you can cast a Fireball past the PCs safely in almost all cases.
Nom 12-05-07, 08:38 AM	Adding to what Merestil said, ray and area spells explicitly do not need line of sight. Ray spells are subject to concealment miss chances, so if you don't have LoS there's a 50% miss chance before you even get to the ranged touch attack. Area spells don't suffer concealment miss chances, but still need LoE. Ray spells are targeted using the ranged weapon rules: use those rules to figure line of effect, cover, etc.. As a special exception, you can make a ranged touch attack roll to shoot a fireball though a hole that would normally block LoE (such as an arrow slit). If you "miss", it detonates at the blockage. This exception is unique to fireball. For completeness, "target" spells need both LoS and LoE, though you can substitute touch for LoS. Note that the destination of teleport spells is not covered by these rules - most need neither LoS nor LoE - but the targets of the spell (ie who gets teleported) are.