Flat-Footed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Flat-Footed [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Quizzit
11-15-07, 10:43 PM Hey guys,

Ok Pg 137 (PHB) says that you are considered Flat-Footed at the beginning of combat before you take your first turn.

Really? I mean, I could understand that if you were caught suprised.

Do you guys use this rule as written?
Colmarr
11-15-07, 11:09 PM Being flat-footed means that you are surprised, in a sense.

The combat started, and someone got the drop on you because their reactions are faster than yours.

I think you'll find that virtually everyone uses this rule as written.
Greco
11-15-07, 11:14 PM I use it in majority of the combat settings. The minority of battles are direct one on one challenges.
StevenO
11-15-07, 11:28 PM Yup.

Until the fighting actually start two sides can simply face off expecting the other side to go first but even then can be surprised when they either do or are shocked to discover they are instead waiting for them to "show their hand."

Without the rule initiative becomes much less important and rogue take a serious combat hit.
PenderGrass
11-16-07, 02:42 AM Do you guys use this rule as written?
Why do you think I shouldn't?

:dragon:
*****
Sarella Starshine
11-16-07, 03:22 AM One can be aware, but not ready for combat. Hince, you are not suprised, yet you are flat-footed.

Just because I can see you down the hall, and have my sword out anticipating combat, does not mean that I know exactly when combat occurs (if it does occur at all). Since, I do not know exactly when the combat will occur, I will be caught a bit off guard (flat-footed), but since I am aware, there is no suprise round.
Someone
11-16-07, 03:34 AM It only really matters if:
A.) The defender would normally have a Dex bonus to AC. If your Dex is 10, you aren't any easier to hit than normal.
B.) The attack gets a benefit (sneak attack, etc.) from attacking a flat-footed opponent.
Orenmir
11-18-07, 11:19 PM In most combat situations, I think this rule makes perfect sense. But, I think there are select occasions when it does not. For example:

A fighter walks down a path through a forest he knows is dangerous. Therefore, his sword is drawn and readied. He moves slowly, on the balls of his feet with knees slightly bent -- ready for action. A dire wolf steps onto the path 50 feet ahead of the fighter; they spot each other at the same time.

Dire wolf wins initiative, takes his 50' move and attacks the fighter.

RAW, the fighter is flat-footed. That just doesn't seem fair to me. The fighter has been ready for action, and he sees the wolf coming 50' away! After reading my first description of the fighter's readiness, explain to me how he could be more ready for combat?

This is a rare situation, but I would rule the fighter is not flat-footed.
Marcus Majarra
11-19-07, 12:25 AM In most combat situations, I think this rule makes perfect sense. But, I think there are select occasions when it does not. For example:

A fighter walks down a path through a forest he knows is dangerous. Therefore, his sword is drawn and readied. He moves slowly, on the balls of his feet with knees slightly bent -- ready for action. A dire wolf steps onto the path 50 feet ahead of the fighter; they spot each other at the same time.

Dire wolf wins initiative, takes his 50' move and attacks the fighter.

RAW, the fighter is flat-footed. That just doesn't seem fair to me. The fighter has been ready for action, and he sees the wolf coming 50' away! After reading my first description of the fighter's readiness, explain to me how he could be more ready for combat?

This is a rare situation, but I would rule the fighter is not flat-footed.
A few things to consider:

1) Since the fighter has his sword drawn, he's already one move action closer to getting whatever he plans to do done. This is how his combat readiness provides a concrete advantage.

2) The moment the opponents are aware of one another is the moment the encounter starts. However, being aware doesn't mean you're ready to deal with that precise opponent. A character is flat-footed before acting simply because he's yet to adequately react to his opponents. Having a higher initiative means you react more quickly. So while the fighter, with his sword in hand, might be ready to battle, it's possible he can't react to the dire wolf quickly enough, which is why he's flat-footed in the first place.

3) The fact that the wolf is 50 feet away has little relevance. Distance means little when compared to speed. From a logical point of view, it's easier to react that something that moves slower. If the wolf can easily cover that distance (say, by charging) and it reacts faster than the fighter, it doesn't matter that it's 10 feet away or 200 feet away.
Orenmir
11-19-07, 12:52 AM A character is flat-footed before acting simply because he's yet to adequately react to his opponents.

Why? Why can't he make himself ready (like I described)? I know my idea is not RAW -- I'm just trying to be realistic.

Having a higher initiative means you react more quickly.

I would have to disagree. Higher initiative means you act more quickly. If you are ready for an encounter/attack/combat -- you can react to attack adequately. (Again, not RAW -- just realistic.)

So while the fighter, with his sword in hand, might be ready to battle, it's possible he can't react to the dire wolf quickly enough, which is why he's flat-footed in the first place.

So, what you saying is that my fighter is simply wasting his effort preparing himself for an attack as he's walking down the path. RAW, he will still be flat-footed if he loses initiative. He gains absolutely no tactical advantage by walking slowly, on the balls of his feet, with knees slightly bent, and sword readied. He might as well be strolling down the path at a regular pace, using his sword as a walking stick; because, the outcome will be the same.

I find that a failed logic.
weasel0
11-19-07, 01:24 AM So ask your DM if he can give the character a bonus to his Init check. Otherwise, it looks to me like the fighter is already in "battle mode." And that would just slow the game down too much because now your walking through a forest 1 round at a time.

I've done(and need to get back too) martial arts. Lots of sparring. Just because both my opponent and I are aware(so no surprise), one of us is going to be first to attack and the other has to instantly begin defending instead of attacking like they wanted too. Think of being FF as a few seconds, or a split-second of sizing up the opponent. Whoever finishes sizing up the other first gets a slight advantage. Then the battle commences normally because you get into a rythym of attack, defend, attack, defend until one is defeated.
Zinger2099
11-19-07, 08:27 AM Hey guys,

Ok Pg 137 (PHB) says that you are considered Flat-Footed at the beginning of combat before you take your first turn.

Really? I mean, I could understand that if you were caught suprised.

Do you guys use this rule as written?

Yes. This gives rogues their 'niche' so to speak. It is very important for a sneak character to get that initial sneak attack damage in combat, or for any character really to take advantage of the lower AC of others. I enforce this rule strongly. It's recently come to my attention (via other threads) that a lot of DM's don't enforce this rule. I frown on them. I see this rule as a very important one, and encourage all DMs to enforce it.

The reason being, while you may be AWARE that combat is about to begin, someone still acted before you. Someone was faster. This represents that little almost insignificant amount of time between action and reaction. Though you are aware that the Minotaur is barroling down the hallway at you, he is faster, and conects his hit before you have time to properly react to the fact that he is attacking you.

Think of it as not being in a battle-ready stance.

Flat-footed has nothing to do with surprise (though a surprised character is flat-footed), that's what the surprise round is for. And yes, this DOES mean that a character who acts in a surprise round and then again in the normal round of combat can potentially attack an opponent twice before that opponent gets a chance to act. This is not broken, far from it. Give the rogues their power where power is due. And then remember to use the same advantages against your players, when your monsters get to act first.

If you choose to forget this rule, you SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the usefulness of having a high initiative modifier. Improved Initiative becomes so much more important if it is the difference of being caught flat-footed or not on round uno.

Enforce this.
Axiomatic_vampire
11-19-07, 08:27 AM So, what you saying is that my fighter is simply wasting his effort preparing himself for an attack as he's walking down the path. RAW, he will still be flat-footed if he loses initiative. He gains absolutely no tactical advantage by walking slowly, on the balls of his feet, with knees slightly bent, and sword readied. He might as well be strolling down the path at a regular pace, using his sword as a walking stick; because, the outcome will be the same.

I find that a failed logic.

Realistically, probably. In terms of game mechanics, treating "I walk down the street holding my sword" differently from "I walk down the street, shield at the ready, on the balls of my feat, keeping my head on a swivel for danger" as two different mechanical statuses becomes problematic. The essence of the system is "get something, give something up". That's horribly compromised when the player can fluff up his description of how he walks to gain a combat advantage.
Mechanical advantages should come from the character sheet.
Zinger2099
11-19-07, 08:35 AM In most combat situations, I think this rule makes perfect sense. But, I think there are select occasions when it does not. For example:

A fighter walks down a path through a forest he knows is dangerous. Therefore, his sword is drawn and readied. He moves slowly, on the balls of his feet with knees slightly bent -- ready for action. A dire wolf steps onto the path 50 feet ahead of the fighter; they spot each other at the same time.

Dire wolf wins initiative, takes his 50' move and attacks the fighter.

RAW, the fighter is flat-footed. That just doesn't seem fair to me. The fighter has been ready for action, and he sees the wolf coming 50' away! After reading my first description of the fighter's readiness, explain to me how he could be more ready for combat?

This is a rare situation, but I would rule the fighter is not flat-footed.

In your specific example, here is what I would do. I would say if the Fighter (who is moving slowly, cautiously), can only move 5 feet a round, constantly stopping to make listen/spot checks. If he hears and sees the enemy BEFORE the enemy makes it's attack against the Fighter, then the Fighter gets to act on the surprise round, and is not flat-footed on the first regular round of combat. That being said, the wolf is also acting on the surprise round, so it still might be faster then the Fighter. If the Fighter was being extra cautious, I might go so far as to award the Fighter a +2 circumstance bonus on his Initiative roll, thereby giving him a chance to not be flat-footed.
Marcus Majarra
11-19-07, 12:36 PM Why? Why can't he make himself ready (like I described)? I know my idea is not RAW -- I'm just trying to be realistic.
Because, realistically, you can't be fully ready and aware to deal with the unknown. The best he can do, from a realistic point of view, is to prevent surprise attacks and save up on the actual time required to get into combat quickly. Having the weapon drawn is a good thing: that's one thing less to do in combat. Similarly, if he drank a couple of potions beforehand as well, he would be more ready to deal with combat. However, since he doesn't know what the enemy will be (even if he has a good idea), when it will attack, or from which direction it will do so, he remains flat-footed until his initiative comes up.

I would have to disagree. Higher initiative means you act more quickly. If you are ready for an encounter/attack/combat -- you can react to attack adequately. (Again, not RAW -- just realistic.)
Incorrect. Higher initiative means that you act sooner, not more quickly. Acting more quickly means that you get more actions than others within the same time window. As it is, having a higher initiative increases the odds of getting to act before others, early on in combat. Since this also results in ending your flat-footed state at the start of combat, it stands to reason that having a higher initiative means you react to the encounter more rapidly. In other words, you assay the situation and get ready to act more quickly.

So, what you saying is that my fighter is simply wasting his effort preparing himself for an attack as he's walking down the path. RAW, he will still be flat-footed if he loses initiative. He gains absolutely no tactical advantage by walking slowly, on the balls of his feet, with knees slightly bent, and sword readied. He might as well be strolling down the path at a regular pace, using his sword as a walking stick; because, the outcome will be the same.

I find that a failed logic.
Again, the tactical advantage lies in the actions already done before combat starts. If a wizard casts mage armor before combat starts, he's better enabled to deal with combat. With the fighter drawing his weapon and readying his shield beforehand, it's the same deal.

Perhaps what you seem to be missing is the fact that characters are always assumed to be on the lookout. If this is the norm, then being more "combat ready" is of no influence on flat-footed, since this state is independent from your being attentive to your surroundings.
Salla
11-19-07, 01:12 PM Hey guys,

Ok Pg 137 (PHB) says that you are considered Flat-Footed at the beginning of combat before you take your first turn.

Really? I mean, I could understand that if you were caught suprised.

Do you guys use this rule as written?

Yes.
Sinis
11-19-07, 03:30 PM I agree with Marcus' description of what happens. Consider:

Thok the half orc is moving through a forest, his axe in his hands, ready for combat. He steps forward past a tree and notices a patch of white in the corner of his eye. A winterwolf, previously unaware of Thok now glowers at him with his red eyes. Before Thok can move his axe into a more favourable position or shift his footing to better orient himself against the winterwolf, it charges and bites him in the leg.

Now, here's what happens mechanically.

Thok sees the winterwolf. At the same time, the winterwolf sees Thok.
Thok and the winterwolf both roll initiative. The winterwolf goes first.
The winterwolf charges and bites, while Thok is still flat footed.

Now, there are situations where players don't truly act, but are not flat footed. It works in the same way, mechanically.

Thok and Thug are fighting each other in a gladiator pit. Thok is quick this time, and is first out of his small alcove. He steps cautiously forward, and begins to move closer in a radial pattern. Thug steps out of his alcove, and moves in a similar radial pattern, circling, axes at the ready.

In terms of game mechanics, this is what happens:

Thok and Thug are aware of each other.
Thok and Thug roll initiative, and Thok goes first.
Thok moves, Thok is no longer flat footed.
Thug moves, Thug is no longer flat footed.

Note that if Thok could reach Thug, he could have decided to attack him when he wasn't truly ready (that is, flat-footed).
Balseraph
11-19-07, 07:42 PM Unless that hypothetical fighter were ready for a wolf to come from a specific location at a specific moment I would certainly say that he is flat footed.

Mechanically speaking, having his sword drawn and moving warily precludes the possibility of a surprise round which already leaves the fighter on a positive footing. After all, he could win initiative and act before the wolf does when it bounds out of the shadows!
PenderGrass
11-20-07, 12:47 AM For those confused by why flat-footed exists, they should read the Rules of the Game Archive on initiative.

For those still determined to not use it, make sure you let your players know that you are no longer using the RAW in this matter so they can adjust their play accordingly.

:dragon:
*****
Gospodin_I
11-20-07, 05:57 AM I'm surprised that no one mentioned the fact that contrary to what it feels like actions in combat happen simultaneously within the given round.

Therefore it makes sense to have PC's/monsters flat-footed before they act in combat.
Orenmir
11-20-07, 10:21 AM ***ducking for cover....
Finarin Panjoro
11-20-07, 02:36 PM He might as well be strolling down the path at a regular pace, using his sword as a walking stick; because, the outcome will be the same.
Depends on your DM. I would probably give you a +2 circumstance bonus to Spot and Listen allowing you a better chance to act in the surprise round. In this case you're trading speed for a lesser chance to be surprised.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quizzit 11-15-07, 10:43 PM	Hey guys, Ok Pg 137 (PHB) says that you are considered Flat-Footed at the beginning of combat before you take your first turn. Really? I mean, I could understand that if you were caught suprised. Do you guys use this rule as written?
Colmarr 11-15-07, 11:09 PM	Being flat-footed means that you are surprised, in a sense. The combat started, and someone got the drop on you because their reactions are faster than yours. I think you'll find that virtually everyone uses this rule as written.
Greco 11-15-07, 11:14 PM	I use it in majority of the combat settings. The minority of battles are direct one on one challenges.
StevenO 11-15-07, 11:28 PM	Yup. Until the fighting actually start two sides can simply face off expecting the other side to go first but even then can be surprised when they either do or are shocked to discover they are instead waiting for them to "show their hand." Without the rule initiative becomes much less important and rogue take a serious combat hit.
PenderGrass 11-16-07, 02:42 AM	Do you guys use this rule as written? Why do you think I shouldn't? :dragon: *****
Sarella Starshine 11-16-07, 03:22 AM	One can be aware, but not ready for combat. Hince, you are not suprised, yet you are flat-footed. Just because I can see you down the hall, and have my sword out anticipating combat, does not mean that I know exactly when combat occurs (if it does occur at all). Since, I do not know exactly when the combat will occur, I will be caught a bit off guard (flat-footed), but since I am aware, there is no suprise round.
Someone 11-16-07, 03:34 AM	It only really matters if: A.) The defender would normally have a Dex bonus to AC. If your Dex is 10, you aren't any easier to hit than normal. B.) The attack gets a benefit (sneak attack, etc.) from attacking a flat-footed opponent.
Orenmir 11-18-07, 11:19 PM	In most combat situations, I think this rule makes perfect sense. But, I think there are select occasions when it does not. For example: A fighter walks down a path through a forest he knows is dangerous. Therefore, his sword is drawn and readied. He moves slowly, on the balls of his feet with knees slightly bent -- ready for action. A dire wolf steps onto the path 50 feet ahead of the fighter; they spot each other at the same time. Dire wolf wins initiative, takes his 50' move and attacks the fighter. RAW, the fighter is flat-footed. That just doesn't seem fair to me. The fighter has been ready for action, and he sees the wolf coming 50' away! After reading my first description of the fighter's readiness, explain to me how he could be more ready for combat? This is a rare situation, but I would rule the fighter is not flat-footed.
Marcus Majarra 11-19-07, 12:25 AM	In most combat situations, I think this rule makes perfect sense. But, I think there are select occasions when it does not. For example: A fighter walks down a path through a forest he knows is dangerous. Therefore, his sword is drawn and readied. He moves slowly, on the balls of his feet with knees slightly bent -- ready for action. A dire wolf steps onto the path 50 feet ahead of the fighter; they spot each other at the same time. Dire wolf wins initiative, takes his 50' move and attacks the fighter. RAW, the fighter is flat-footed. That just doesn't seem fair to me. The fighter has been ready for action, and he sees the wolf coming 50' away! After reading my first description of the fighter's readiness, explain to me how he could be more ready for combat? This is a rare situation, but I would rule the fighter is not flat-footed. A few things to consider: 1) Since the fighter has his sword drawn, he's already one move action closer to getting whatever he plans to do done. This is how his combat readiness provides a concrete advantage. 2) The moment the opponents are aware of one another is the moment the encounter starts. However, being aware doesn't mean you're ready to deal with that precise opponent. A character is flat-footed before acting simply because he's yet to adequately react to his opponents. Having a higher initiative means you react more quickly. So while the fighter, with his sword in hand, might be ready to battle, it's possible he can't react to the dire wolf quickly enough, which is why he's flat-footed in the first place. 3) The fact that the wolf is 50 feet away has little relevance. Distance means little when compared to speed. From a logical point of view, it's easier to react that something that moves slower. If the wolf can easily cover that distance (say, by charging) and it reacts faster than the fighter, it doesn't matter that it's 10 feet away or 200 feet away.
Orenmir 11-19-07, 12:52 AM	A character is flat-footed before acting simply because he's yet to adequately react to his opponents. Why? Why can't he make himself ready (like I described)? I know my idea is not RAW -- I'm just trying to be realistic. Having a higher initiative means you react more quickly. I would have to disagree. Higher initiative means you act more quickly. If you are ready for an encounter/attack/combat -- you can react to attack adequately. (Again, not RAW -- just realistic.) So while the fighter, with his sword in hand, might be ready to battle, it's possible he can't react to the dire wolf quickly enough, which is why he's flat-footed in the first place. So, what you saying is that my fighter is simply wasting his effort preparing himself for an attack as he's walking down the path. RAW, he will still be flat-footed if he loses initiative. He gains absolutely no tactical advantage by walking slowly, on the balls of his feet, with knees slightly bent, and sword readied. He might as well be strolling down the path at a regular pace, using his sword as a walking stick; because, the outcome will be the same. I find that a failed logic.
weasel0 11-19-07, 01:24 AM	So ask your DM if he can give the character a bonus to his Init check. Otherwise, it looks to me like the fighter is already in "battle mode." And that would just slow the game down too much because now your walking through a forest 1 round at a time. I've done(and need to get back too) martial arts. Lots of sparring. Just because both my opponent and I are aware(so no surprise), one of us is going to be first to attack and the other has to instantly begin defending instead of attacking like they wanted too. Think of being FF as a few seconds, or a split-second of sizing up the opponent. Whoever finishes sizing up the other first gets a slight advantage. Then the battle commences normally because you get into a rythym of attack, defend, attack, defend until one is defeated.
Zinger2099 11-19-07, 08:27 AM	Hey guys, Ok Pg 137 (PHB) says that you are considered Flat-Footed at the beginning of combat before you take your first turn. Really? I mean, I could understand that if you were caught suprised. Do you guys use this rule as written? Yes. This gives rogues their 'niche' so to speak. It is very important for a sneak character to get that initial sneak attack damage in combat, or for any character really to take advantage of the lower AC of others. I enforce this rule strongly. It's recently come to my attention (via other threads) that a lot of DM's don't enforce this rule. I frown on them. I see this rule as a very important one, and encourage all DMs to enforce it. The reason being, while you may be AWARE that combat is about to begin, someone still acted before you. Someone was faster. This represents that little almost insignificant amount of time between action and reaction. Though you are aware that the Minotaur is barroling down the hallway at you, he is faster, and conects his hit before you have time to properly react to the fact that he is attacking you. Think of it as not being in a battle-ready stance. Flat-footed has nothing to do with surprise (though a surprised character is flat-footed), that's what the surprise round is for. And yes, this DOES mean that a character who acts in a surprise round and then again in the normal round of combat can potentially attack an opponent twice before that opponent gets a chance to act. This is not broken, far from it. Give the rogues their power where power is due. And then remember to use the same advantages against your players, when your monsters get to act first. If you choose to forget this rule, you SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the usefulness of having a high initiative modifier. Improved Initiative becomes so much more important if it is the difference of being caught flat-footed or not on round uno. Enforce this.
Axiomatic_vampire 11-19-07, 08:27 AM	So, what you saying is that my fighter is simply wasting his effort preparing himself for an attack as he's walking down the path. RAW, he will still be flat-footed if he loses initiative. He gains absolutely no tactical advantage by walking slowly, on the balls of his feet, with knees slightly bent, and sword readied. He might as well be strolling down the path at a regular pace, using his sword as a walking stick; because, the outcome will be the same. I find that a failed logic. Realistically, probably. In terms of game mechanics, treating "I walk down the street holding my sword" differently from "I walk down the street, shield at the ready, on the balls of my feat, keeping my head on a swivel for danger" as two different mechanical statuses becomes problematic. The essence of the system is "get something, give something up". That's horribly compromised when the player can fluff up his description of how he walks to gain a combat advantage. Mechanical advantages should come from the character sheet.
Zinger2099 11-19-07, 08:35 AM	In most combat situations, I think this rule makes perfect sense. But, I think there are select occasions when it does not. For example: A fighter walks down a path through a forest he knows is dangerous. Therefore, his sword is drawn and readied. He moves slowly, on the balls of his feet with knees slightly bent -- ready for action. A dire wolf steps onto the path 50 feet ahead of the fighter; they spot each other at the same time. Dire wolf wins initiative, takes his 50' move and attacks the fighter. RAW, the fighter is flat-footed. That just doesn't seem fair to me. The fighter has been ready for action, and he sees the wolf coming 50' away! After reading my first description of the fighter's readiness, explain to me how he could be more ready for combat? This is a rare situation, but I would rule the fighter is not flat-footed. In your specific example, here is what I would do. I would say if the Fighter (who is moving slowly, cautiously), can only move 5 feet a round, constantly stopping to make listen/spot checks. If he hears and sees the enemy BEFORE the enemy makes it's attack against the Fighter, then the Fighter gets to act on the surprise round, and is not flat-footed on the first regular round of combat. That being said, the wolf is also acting on the surprise round, so it still might be faster then the Fighter. If the Fighter was being extra cautious, I might go so far as to award the Fighter a +2 circumstance bonus on his Initiative roll, thereby giving him a chance to not be flat-footed.
Marcus Majarra 11-19-07, 12:36 PM	Why? Why can't he make himself ready (like I described)? I know my idea is not RAW -- I'm just trying to be realistic. Because, realistically, you can't be fully ready and aware to deal with the unknown. The best he can do, from a realistic point of view, is to prevent surprise attacks and save up on the actual time required to get into combat quickly. Having the weapon drawn is a good thing: that's one thing less to do in combat. Similarly, if he drank a couple of potions beforehand as well, he would be more ready to deal with combat. However, since he doesn't know what the enemy will be (even if he has a good idea), when it will attack, or from which direction it will do so, he remains flat-footed until his initiative comes up. I would have to disagree. Higher initiative means you act more quickly. If you are ready for an encounter/attack/combat -- you can react to attack adequately. (Again, not RAW -- just realistic.) Incorrect. Higher initiative means that you act sooner, not more quickly. Acting more quickly means that you get more actions than others within the same time window. As it is, having a higher initiative increases the odds of getting to act before others, early on in combat. Since this also results in ending your flat-footed state at the start of combat, it stands to reason that having a higher initiative means you react to the encounter more rapidly. In other words, you assay the situation and get ready to act more quickly. So, what you saying is that my fighter is simply wasting his effort preparing himself for an attack as he's walking down the path. RAW, he will still be flat-footed if he loses initiative. He gains absolutely no tactical advantage by walking slowly, on the balls of his feet, with knees slightly bent, and sword readied. He might as well be strolling down the path at a regular pace, using his sword as a walking stick; because, the outcome will be the same. I find that a failed logic. Again, the tactical advantage lies in the actions already done before combat starts. If a wizard casts mage armor before combat starts, he's better enabled to deal with combat. With the fighter drawing his weapon and readying his shield beforehand, it's the same deal. Perhaps what you seem to be missing is the fact that characters are always assumed to be on the lookout. If this is the norm, then being more "combat ready" is of no influence on flat-footed, since this state is independent from your being attentive to your surroundings.
Salla 11-19-07, 01:12 PM	Hey guys, Ok Pg 137 (PHB) says that you are considered Flat-Footed at the beginning of combat before you take your first turn. Really? I mean, I could understand that if you were caught suprised. Do you guys use this rule as written? Yes.
Sinis 11-19-07, 03:30 PM	I agree with Marcus' description of what happens. Consider: Thok the half orc is moving through a forest, his axe in his hands, ready for combat. He steps forward past a tree and notices a patch of white in the corner of his eye. A winterwolf, previously unaware of Thok now glowers at him with his red eyes. Before Thok can move his axe into a more favourable position or shift his footing to better orient himself against the winterwolf, it charges and bites him in the leg. Now, here's what happens mechanically. Thok sees the winterwolf. At the same time, the winterwolf sees Thok. Thok and the winterwolf both roll initiative. The winterwolf goes first. The winterwolf charges and bites, while Thok is still flat footed. Now, there are situations where players don't truly act, but are not flat footed. It works in the same way, mechanically. Thok and Thug are fighting each other in a gladiator pit. Thok is quick this time, and is first out of his small alcove. He steps cautiously forward, and begins to move closer in a radial pattern. Thug steps out of his alcove, and moves in a similar radial pattern, circling, axes at the ready. In terms of game mechanics, this is what happens: Thok and Thug are aware of each other. Thok and Thug roll initiative, and Thok goes first. Thok moves, Thok is no longer flat footed. Thug moves, Thug is no longer flat footed. Note that if Thok could reach Thug, he could have decided to attack him when he wasn't truly ready (that is, flat-footed).
Balseraph 11-19-07, 07:42 PM	Unless that hypothetical fighter were ready for a wolf to come from a specific location at a specific moment I would certainly say that he is flat footed. Mechanically speaking, having his sword drawn and moving warily precludes the possibility of a surprise round which already leaves the fighter on a positive footing. After all, he could win initiative and act before the wolf does when it bounds out of the shadows!
PenderGrass 11-20-07, 12:47 AM	For those confused by why flat-footed exists, they should read the Rules of the Game Archive on initiative. For those still determined to not use it, make sure you let your players know that you are no longer using the RAW in this matter so they can adjust their play accordingly. :dragon: *****
Gospodin_I 11-20-07, 05:57 AM	I'm surprised that no one mentioned the fact that contrary to what it feels like actions in combat happen simultaneously within the given round. Therefore it makes sense to have PC's/monsters flat-footed before they act in combat.
Orenmir 11-20-07, 10:21 AM	***ducking for cover....
Finarin Panjoro 11-20-07, 02:36 PM	He might as well be strolling down the path at a regular pace, using his sword as a walking stick; because, the outcome will be the same. Depends on your DM. I would probably give you a +2 circumstance bonus to Spot and Listen allowing you a better chance to act in the surprise round. In this case you're trading speed for a lesser chance to be surprised.