Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pukunui 11-25-07, 01:01 AM	Hi all, My players are about to set out on a long march and I'm thinking they're going to want to push their mounts to do a bit of forced marching if possible. They've got a dragon shaman in the party, so they've been talking about using her vigor aura to keep the horses from dying of lethal damage caused by a forced march. I can't see any reason why that wouldn't work, although it wouldn't prevent the horses from becoming fatigued (not that that would kill them ...). Also, the section on forced marching in the PHB specifically talks about walking, so I imagine that if the PCs are riding horses for more than 8 hours in a day, it's the horses that suffer the effects of the forced march but the PCs don't? Wouldn't they suffer some sort of fatigue from simply being in constant motion for so long (not to mention being saddle sore and all that)? I once spent about 12 hours straight traveling in a bus, then on a boat, then on another bus ... it was the only time I've ever had motion sickness. If nothing else, they'd obviously suffer the fatigue caused by not getting enough rest should they travel long enough each day to not be able to rest for 8 hours straight. Does a mount need 8 hours of rest a day too? If the PCs were to push their horses to march for 24 hours straight, keeping them alive with the vigor aura, would the horses eventually become exhausted (fatigue from forced march plus fatigue from not getting enough rest)? EDIT: Obviously mounts need some amount of sleep each day (even if it's more or less than 8 hours), so they would become fatigued/exhausted if they didn't get it. The question is - how much rest does a typical mount need each day? Your advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jonathan p.s. as a sort of side note, does the Fast Healing 1 granted by the vigor aura affect non-lethal damage? Normally Fast Healing heals non-lethal damage first, but since non-lethal damage is tracked differently to lethal damage, and the vigor aura only works for people at half or fewer hit points, would it have any affect on non-lethal damage? Would it cure all of it, even if the person had no lethal damage? Does anyone know?
pukunui 11-27-07, 01:26 AM	Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
PenderGrass 11-27-07, 02:12 AM	My players are about to set out on a long march and I'm thinking they're going to want to push their mounts to do a bit of forced marching if possible. They've got a dragon shaman in the party, so they've been talking about using her vigor aura to keep the horses from dying of lethal damage caused by a forced march. Just to be clear, forced marching causes non-lethal damage. I can't see any reason why that wouldn't work, although it wouldn't prevent the horses from becoming fatigued (not that that would kill them ...). Correct, although to keep them all within 30 feet may create a slight problem. Since, the Aura only would heal up to 1 point above half their normal hit points, they would be fatigued and always at 1 point above half or less of their hit points. Also, the section on forced marching in the PHB specifically talks about walking, so I imagine that if the PCs are riding horses for more than 8 hours in a day, it's the horses that suffer the effects of the forced march but the PCs don't? Wouldn't they suffer some sort of fatigue.... The rider and mount both suffer from forced marching. The question is - how much rest does a typical mount need each day? Rest for a horse is the same as rest for a rider. 8 hours per day. p.s. as a sort of side note, does the Fast Healing 1 granted by the vigor aura affect non-lethal damage? Yes. Normally Fast Healing heals non-lethal damage first, but since non-lethal damage is tracked differently to lethal damage, and the vigor aura only works for people at half or fewer hit points, would it have any affect on non-lethal damage? Would it cure all of it, even if the person had no lethal damage? Does anyone know? It will not cure all of it - since the aura only kicks in at half hit points or less. Once the creature being affected by the fast healing aura returns to one point above half hit points, the aura would stop working on them. Remember, non-lethal and lethal combine when subtracting from your total hit points. So, in a sense they do track differently, but they also track the same when looking at how much and how often this power will benefit your group. Personally, I would laugh at anyone that thinks running around at just 1 point above half your hit points and being fatigued is a good idea. I would even allow every adventurer above 1st level to roll a DC 2 wisdom check to think twice about following through with such a crazy plan. :dragon: *****
pukunui 11-27-07, 03:13 AM	Just to be clear, forced marching causes non-lethal damage.For mounts the damage is lethal. Correct, although to keep them all within 30 feet may create a slight problem.True. Since, the Aura only would heal up to 1 point above half their normal hit points, they would be fatigued and always at 1 point above half or less of their hit points.Yes. But they wouldn't die and could be healed up at the end of the day's forced march. The rider and mount both suffer from forced marching.Does it actually say this in the RAW anywhere, though? I can't find it. The rules for characters doing a forced march specifically uses the word "walking". You aren't walking when you're riding a horse, so I would like to be absolutely sure about this one ... Rest for a horse is the same as rest for a rider. 8 hours per day.I have no reason to doubt you here but again, it doesn't actually say anywhere in the RAW that I can see. I think it's a fine assumption to make in the circumstances, though. No need to go setting different amounts of rest for different creatures. Just make it a flat 8 hours for everybody. It will not cure all of it - since the aura only kicks in at half hit points or less. Once the creature being affected by the fast healing aura returns to one point above half hit points, the aura would stop working on them. Remember, non-lethal and lethal combine when subtracting from your total hit points. So, in a sense they do track differently, but they also track the same when looking at how much and how often this power will benefit your group.The way I'm seeing it is that someone suffering from non-lethal damage would not be affected by the vigor aura unless they also had enough lethal damage to put them at half or fewer hit points, in which case the aura would heal some/all (?) non-lethal damage before then healing lethal damage up to a number of hitpoints above half equal to the dragon shaman's aura bonus. Personally, I would laugh at anyone that thinks running around at just 1 point above half your hit points and being fatigued is a good idea. I would even allow every adventurer above 1st level to roll a DC 2 wisdom check to think twice about following through with such a crazy plan.I don't know that it's necessarily all that crazy. I actually think it's a rather clever use of the dragon shaman's aura. Sure, as the DM, I could easily ambush them with something that would slaughter their mounts in a blink of an eye, but they'll be mostly traveling through settled land that isn't too dangerous.
PenderGrass 11-27-07, 01:17 PM	A quick couple of things I hadn't thought of last night... To make an animal/mount do a forced march requires a handle animal check (which will be a DC 27 for each hour that it is hurt and a DC 25 if it isn't hurt). To a lesser degree, making a mount do a forced march without great need could very well offend the sensabilities of any good-aligned druid or ranger in the group. It could also be seen as a cruel and very self-centered act, possibly pushing all those involved one step closer to neutral on one axis or another. This is, by far, a very delicate matter and should be handled by the DM on a case-by-case scenario. As to your other questions and follow-up, I will cruise back around and answer when I can. :dragon: *****
pukunui 11-27-07, 02:26 PM	To make an animal/mount do a forced march requires a handle animal check (which will be a DC 27 for each hour that it is hurt and a DC 25 if it isn't hurt).I was actually wondering about that but haven't gotten around to looking at the handle animal skill description yet. All I'd been working off of was the forced march and mounted movement info on pg 164 of the PHB. To a lesser degree, making a mount do a forced march without great need could very well offend the sensabilities of any good-aligned druid or ranger in the group. It could also be seen as a cruel and very self-centered act, possibly pushing all those involved one step closer to neutral on one axis or another. This is, by far, a very delicate matter and should be handled by the DM on a case-by-case scenario.Hmm. Good point. As to your other questions and follow-up, I will cruise back around and answer when I can.Thanks for all your help so far. Cheers, Jonathan
Prom 11-27-07, 05:41 PM	Originally Posted by PenderGrass, To make an animal/mount do a forced march requires a handle animal check (which will be a DC 27 for each hour that it is hurt and a DC 25 if it isn't hurt). This is where the whole plan will fall apart. My character Ivan and Zai are most likely to succeed on a handle animal check, but everyone in the party will have to make their own check. Ivan has to roll 17 on the dice, the rest could possibly pass it if they all roll 20, lol. Even if the character's dismount and walk the horses there's still the Handle animal check to get passed. And if one character with the best Handle animal modifier pulls all the horses for the ones that will fail the check, it's unlikely to get them much further each day if at all. One character controling 6 fatigued horses must have a horrible DC. Prom
pukunui 11-27-07, 05:54 PM	This is where the whole plan will fall apart. My character Ivan and Zai are most likely to succeed on a handle animal check, but everyone in the party will have to make their own check. Ivan has to roll 17 on the dice, the rest could possibly pass it if they all roll 20, lol. Even if the character's dismount and walk the horses there's still the Handle animal check to get passed. And if one character with the best Handle animal modifier pulls all the horses for the ones that will fail the check, it's unlikely to get them much further each day if at all. One character controling 6 fatigued horses must have a horrible DC. Prom What's even worse is that you can't make a handle animal check untrained, so your fighter and the ranger are the only ones in the group who can do it. EDIT: I take that back. Turns out Joe the warlock has a rank in handle animal as well (mod is +5), so it's just the two dwarves who wouldn't be able to get their horses to do a forced march. That aside, pendergrass raised an excellent point about the ethics of the thing. I can't believe it never occurred to me. I guess I was just so wrapped up in the mechanics of it all that I just never thought to step back and say, "Hey, wait a minute, this is 'cruelty to animals'." I mean, sure, most people in a "medieval" setting wouldn't care - possibly not even "good" characters - but since there's a ranger in the party, he's definitely going to care and would more than likely do whatever he could to stop it from happening.
PenderGrass 11-27-07, 06:32 PM	One character controling 6 fatigued horses must have a horrible DC. The DC would still be 27 for a fatigued (i.e., hurt) group of horses - you would just need to check vs. each individual horse. Each hour of forced march. As far as the whole ethics of the scenario, well - that is an individual DM call. Personally, I would allow a good-aligned ranger or druid to push an animal via forced march if the need were great enough to justify the abuse inflicted upon the beasts of burden. Even then, it would never be a law set in stone and each circumstance would need judging on its individual merits (or lack thereof). Beyond this, I am not finding much in the Core that pertains to mounts, rest for beasts of burden, riders, etc. I imagine that there are some rules in the old Arms & Equipment Guide book - but at that point the "rules" are less than "official" for those needing RAW stuff from Core. :dragon: *****
pukunui 11-27-07, 06:51 PM	As far as the whole ethics of the scenario, well - that is an individual DM call. Personally, I would allow a good-aligned ranger or druid to push an animal via forced march if the need were great enough to justify the abuse inflicted upon the beasts of burden. Even then, it would never be a law set in stone and each circumstance would need judging on its individual merits (or lack thereof).I think in this particular case you could argue that the ends justify the means. The PCs are about to race back to the city in time to help defend it from the invading enemy army. If they dawdle at all, they won't make it back in time ... Still, I'm surprised that the whole "animal cruelty" thing never even occurred to me. That's normally something with which I'm in tune ... (as an example, I got upset when the wolf got shot in Dances With Wolves and refused to watch the rest of it because of that. I was a bit younger then but still ...) Beyond this, I am not finding much in the Core that pertains to mounts, rest for beasts of burden, riders, etc. I imagine that there are some rules in the old Arms & Equipment Guide book - but at that point the "rules" are less than "official" for those needing RAW stuff from Core.Ah yes, A&EG. I'll have a look there. EDIT: Nope, nothing very useful in there. :(
Prom 11-27-07, 10:53 PM	Posted by Pukunui, Hey, wait a minute, this is 'cruelty to animals'." I mean, sure, most people in a "medieval" setting wouldn't care - possibly not even "good" characters - but since there's a ranger in the party, he's definitely going to care and would more than likely do whatever he could to stop it from happening. You wish, Zai's player (ranger) has been wanting to force march the horses for sometime, lol. At least Ivan if it could be done would not run them into the ground and heal them after. Prom
PenderGrass 11-28-07, 12:48 AM	You wish, Zai's player (ranger) has been wanting to force march the horses for sometime, lol. At least Ivan if it could be done would not run them into the ground and heal them after. Prom I certainly hope Zai isn't aligned "good." :dragon: *****
Prom 11-28-07, 01:41 AM	Posted by PenderGrass, I certainly hope Zai isn't aligned "good." Zai's is CG, lol. Ivan is CN. But to be fair this whole question started about forced marching, when I suggested it to Pukunui. And I play Ivan, not Zai. I guess Zai inspired me. Prom
pukunui 11-28-07, 02:35 AM	You wish, Zai's player (ranger) has been wanting to force march the horses for sometime, lol. At least Ivan if it could be done would not run them into the ground and heal them after.That's news to me. If that's the case, then he hasn't been roleplaying his character very well (not that I'm surprised by that or anything ... after all, he roleplays all his characters the same way anyway, no matter what their actual class is ... :P ;))
PenderGrass 11-28-07, 03:54 AM	LOL Welcome to being a DM, pukunui. BOT, in the MM you will see that animals are required to "eat, sleep, and breathe." How much sleep does each type of animal require? Use RAW for making an adjudication. Unless it's a cat. If it's a cat, it sleeps 60%-80% of the time. :dragon: *****
pukunui 11-28-07, 04:08 AM	LOL Welcome to being a DM, pukunui.LOL. Yes, I know. The guy who plays the ranger plays all his characters like they're treasure hunter rogues ... BOT, in the MM you will see that animals are required to "eat, sleep, and breathe."Yes, I read that when Prom first brought the whole thing up. I was wondering how much sleep a horse needed. How much sleep does each type of animal require? Use RAW for making an adjudication.I think it's probably ok to abstract it and say that they all just need 8 hours like humanoids do. Unless it's a cat. If it's a cat, it sleeps 60%-80% of the time.LOL. Right.