Gestalt Rules & Feats? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt Rules & Feats? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kiioro
12-05-07, 07:00 PM I'm not a DM but this requires DM help. We're going to start a gestalt campaign when our current DM goes to Japan (lucky bastard). Our DM-to-be said "it'll be gestalt", which left me with a "WTF" expression on my face.

I'm thinking about making a Rogue-Ranger or Rogue-Fighter... but then I thought about something.

The Ascetic Stalker (I think it's called) feat from Complete Scoundrel. Your monk and rogue levels stack to determine the sneak attack amount of dice. It'd be obvious for many that in gestalt they wouldn't stack, but... where can I read the rules that state that "obvious" rule? If it isn't stated, at level 3, I'd do 4d6 sneak attack, no?

Where can I find the rules for players when running a Gestalt Campagin? DMG? PHB? Unearthed Arcana?
StevenO
12-05-07, 07:31 PM Gestalt rules would be in the Unearthed Arcana (which I don't own.)

As they are optional rules using them would also make other things optional that you may otherwise take for granted. If you're already benefitting from two class's abilities each level with gestalt you shouldn't expect to "double up" using a feat or ability that is mean to combine two SEPERATE classes.
Enialis_Gryphon
12-05-07, 08:08 PM There are no rules that specifically say that.

however, with gestalt, it could very easily be argued that you can't take that feat.

If you have a fifth level Rogue/Monk, then you technically don't have any levels of Rogue or Monk. You have levels of Rogue/Monk.

Of course, that would be an extreme.

The real deal is, if you have a fifth level Rogue/Monk, you don't have five levels of Rogue, and five levels of Monk. So, there wouldn't be anything to stack.

As stated before, these are optional rules. So, your DM would have to adjudicate a few things.

I almost always run games with this option. In this case, here is how I would let this feat work. You have a tenth level character. He is a, say, Fighter/Rogue 5, Monk/Fighter 5. Now, you have two seperate level progressions with Rogue and Monk. Thus, the feat would work as normal.

However, if you have levels of Rogue/Monk, this feat doesn't work. If you later take levels of Rogue/XXX or Monk/XXX, THEN this feat would start working.

Does that make sense to you?
Kiioro
12-06-07, 12:43 AM Absolutely. I don't think I said it as I meant it. I won't press for that feat to work as I stated, I'd be a complete jerk and lacking common sense. Yet, to avoid doing that kind of thing unwillingly (it'd have to be less obvious, yeah), where can I find the rules for gestalt campaigns?

And even better yet... Are there specific feats' rules?
Marcus Majarra
12-06-07, 01:24 AM You can find them on www.d20srd.org

Furthermore, you should keep in mind that you'll want to avoid mechanics that allow for characters to grow simultaneously in two different classes when playing gestalt. The entire idea behind gestalt is that you already get to improve two classes at once.
Merestil Haye
12-06-07, 08:03 AM It's worth recalling that UA antedated Complete Adventurer, and therefore UA wouldn't have said anything about the Ascetic or Devoted feats. I doubt whether the feats even existed as gleams in the writer's eye when UA was being written. Consequently it can't refer to them at all.

The Gestalt rules ban prestige classes such as Mystic Theurge because they allow characters to advance major aspects of two classes at once. It's not too much of a stretch to point out that the same principle applies to the Ascetic and Devoted feats and therefore they should be banned too.

I'd also recommend that the game uses fractional bonus rules from the outset (also found in UA). It needs a bit of maths to handle, but nothing an averagely schooled group couldn't cope with.
Grizzled Gryphon
12-06-07, 01:31 PM I believe that the gestalt rules about "no duel progression PrC's" was to stop a Wizard/Cleric from taking Mystic Theurge so that one side or the other gets a double progression. In my games, I allow people to take those classes, as long as the other side of the build does not have either of the spell progressions. For example, you could play the Wizard/Cleric until you qualify for Mystic Theurge. Once you take that class, though, you would have to change the other half of the build to something other than Wizard or Cleric. So, you could be a Mystic Theurge/Fighter, for example.

The Mystic Theurge is a poor example of this, though. I do this becuase some of those duel progression classes have cool class abilities that you otherwise couldn't get due to this rule. For example, with that rule, you couldn't play a Abjurant Champion, as that is a "gish" class, and normally couldn't be used. However, if you go Wizard/Fighter until you could enter Abjurant Champion, then you could go Abjurant Champion/Rogue, for example. This has made my players happy, and hasn't upset game balance at all. (thankfully, I don't have any optimizers :P )

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kiioro 12-05-07, 07:00 PM	I'm not a DM but this requires DM help. We're going to start a gestalt campaign when our current DM goes to Japan (lucky bastard). Our DM-to-be said "it'll be gestalt", which left me with a "WTF" expression on my face. I'm thinking about making a Rogue-Ranger or Rogue-Fighter... but then I thought about something. The Ascetic Stalker (I think it's called) feat from Complete Scoundrel. Your monk and rogue levels stack to determine the sneak attack amount of dice. It'd be obvious for many that in gestalt they wouldn't stack, but... where can I read the rules that state that "obvious" rule? If it isn't stated, at level 3, I'd do 4d6 sneak attack, no? Where can I find the rules for players when running a Gestalt Campagin? DMG? PHB? Unearthed Arcana?
StevenO 12-05-07, 07:31 PM	Gestalt rules would be in the Unearthed Arcana (which I don't own.) As they are optional rules using them would also make other things optional that you may otherwise take for granted. If you're already benefitting from two class's abilities each level with gestalt you shouldn't expect to "double up" using a feat or ability that is mean to combine two SEPERATE classes.
Enialis_Gryphon 12-05-07, 08:08 PM	There are no rules that specifically say that. however, with gestalt, it could very easily be argued that you can't take that feat. If you have a fifth level Rogue/Monk, then you technically don't have any levels of Rogue or Monk. You have levels of Rogue/Monk. Of course, that would be an extreme. The real deal is, if you have a fifth level Rogue/Monk, you don't have five levels of Rogue, and five levels of Monk. So, there wouldn't be anything to stack. As stated before, these are optional rules. So, your DM would have to adjudicate a few things. I almost always run games with this option. In this case, here is how I would let this feat work. You have a tenth level character. He is a, say, Fighter/Rogue 5, Monk/Fighter 5. Now, you have two seperate level progressions with Rogue and Monk. Thus, the feat would work as normal. However, if you have levels of Rogue/Monk, this feat doesn't work. If you later take levels of Rogue/XXX or Monk/XXX, THEN this feat would start working. Does that make sense to you?
Kiioro 12-06-07, 12:43 AM	Absolutely. I don't think I said it as I meant it. I won't press for that feat to work as I stated, I'd be a complete jerk and lacking common sense. Yet, to avoid doing that kind of thing unwillingly (it'd have to be less obvious, yeah), where can I find the rules for gestalt campaigns? And even better yet... Are there specific feats' rules?
Marcus Majarra 12-06-07, 01:24 AM	You can find them on www.d20srd.org Furthermore, you should keep in mind that you'll want to avoid mechanics that allow for characters to grow simultaneously in two different classes when playing gestalt. The entire idea behind gestalt is that you already get to improve two classes at once.
Merestil Haye 12-06-07, 08:03 AM	It's worth recalling that UA antedated Complete Adventurer, and therefore UA wouldn't have said anything about the Ascetic or Devoted feats. I doubt whether the feats even existed as gleams in the writer's eye when UA was being written. Consequently it can't refer to them at all. The Gestalt rules ban prestige classes such as Mystic Theurge because they allow characters to advance major aspects of two classes at once. It's not too much of a stretch to point out that the same principle applies to the Ascetic and Devoted feats and therefore they should be banned too. I'd also recommend that the game uses fractional bonus rules from the outset (also found in UA). It needs a bit of maths to handle, but nothing an averagely schooled group couldn't cope with.
Grizzled Gryphon 12-06-07, 01:31 PM	I believe that the gestalt rules about "no duel progression PrC's" was to stop a Wizard/Cleric from taking Mystic Theurge so that one side or the other gets a double progression. In my games, I allow people to take those classes, as long as the other side of the build does not have either of the spell progressions. For example, you could play the Wizard/Cleric until you qualify for Mystic Theurge. Once you take that class, though, you would have to change the other half of the build to something other than Wizard or Cleric. So, you could be a Mystic Theurge/Fighter, for example. The Mystic Theurge is a poor example of this, though. I do this becuase some of those duel progression classes have cool class abilities that you otherwise couldn't get due to this rule. For example, with that rule, you couldn't play a Abjurant Champion, as that is a "gish" class, and normally couldn't be used. However, if you go Wizard/Fighter until you could enter Abjurant Champion, then you could go Abjurant Champion/Rogue, for example. This has made my players happy, and hasn't upset game balance at all. (thankfully, I don't have any optimizers :P )