Grapple and serpent's coil [Archive] - Wizards Community

Grapple and serpent's coil [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
spikevampire
07-23-07, 07:43 PM Only a simple question, if i grapple someone with a monster that have improved grab as special ability can i make more than one grapple check because my high base attack?

if i am a dire bear for example can i make 2 grapple check with -20 and inflict damage with my bite and next make the claws attacks?
Marcus Majarra
07-23-07, 11:45 PM You're confusing lots of unrelated things:

1) If your base attack bonus is high enough, you can make multiple grapple checks during your round as part of your full attack, each at a successively lower bonus.

2) The -20 penalty used in conjunction with Improved Grab only makes it so that the grappler is not considered to be grappling. This means it can still use its regular attacks against other creatures within reach and does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC.

3) Creatures only deal unarmed damage through grapple checks, unless they have the Improved Grab ability, in which case the damage done is equal to that of the natural weapon used to establish the grapple.

4) Only the natural weapon used for grappling can be used in conjunction with grapple checks, for creatures with Improved Grab. However, nothing prevents the creature from attacking normally with its other natural weapons (these take a -4 penalty on the attack roll if the creature is considered to be grappling, as normal for attacks with light weapons).

Here's a best case scenario for you, using a dire bear as an example (+9 BAB/+23 grapple). It attacks and hits a creature with one of its claws as its first attack. It attempts to use Improved Grab, taking the -20 penalty in order to not being considered as grappling; its grapple check is made at +3. The check is successful. Now, since the bear has a BAB of +9, it can make a second grapple check with the same claw, this time at -2 (5 worse than the last one). This check succeeds, and instead of dealing unarmed damage, the bear deals claw damage again (thanks to Improved Grab). Finally, it can still make its remaining claw and bite attacks on the grappled creature at their normal attack bonuses (+19 and +13 respectively).

Had the bear opted not to take the -20 penalty on grapple checks, it still could've made all these attacks, except that neither grapple check would've taken a penalty (they would be done with grapple modifiers of +23 and +18), whereas the other natural attacks would've taken a -4 penalty on the attack roll for using light weapons as part of a full attack when grappling (at +15 and +9 attack bonuses respectively). In this case, the bear would've been considered as grappling, meaning it no longer threatened any squares and lost its Dexterity bonus to AC against creatures it's not grappling.
spikevampire
07-24-07, 07:50 AM Thanks for answer... i am really confused about it :D
but i understand, so i could revalutate the giant snake
ShubNiggurath
07-24-07, 04:02 PM Thank you Marcus, that was very clear. Only 2 things.

1)I don't think that you can mix attacks and grapples as you did. Grappling is a standard action, thus the bear, when he attacks and grabs, he can only finish attacking with his natural weapons (and the opponent counts as non-grappled, since there is no time order for his attacks).
THEN, at the next turn he does his 2 BAB based grapple checks as you said. He can pin too, btw.

2) The improved grab ability does not says that it REPLACES the grapple damage. Some people read that the bear would do, as damage:
grappe damage (size based, 1d4 for large)+STR+claw+STR again.
Other people says that improved grab does not give the STR bonus again.
Other people says that it is just claw+STR as you said.
It is not clear who is right.

Grapple rules are a mess
Anathema
07-24-07, 04:43 PM A grapple is not a standard action, in and of itself. It replaces an attack; the same as trip, sunder, or disarm does.
Marcus Majarra
07-25-07, 11:16 PM 1)I don't think that you can mix attacks and grapples as you did. Grappling is a standard action, thus the bear, when he attacks and grabs, he can only finish attacking with his natural weapons (and the opponent counts as non-grappled, since there is no time order for his attacks).
THEN, at the next turn he does his 2 BAB based grapple checks as you said. He can pin too, btw.
You're incorrect in claiming this. Grappling is not a standard action. What's relatively unclear is what your action options are. From what I can gather from PHB156, there are four kinds of actions you can make while grappling:

1) Special standard actions (Activate Magic Item, Cast a Spell, Escape from Grapple through Escape Artist, Move)
2) Special move actions (Draw a Light Weapon)
3) Special full-round actions (Retrieve a Spell Component)
4) Attacks and substitutes for attacks (Attack Your Opponent, Damage Your Opponent, Escape from Grapple through grapple checks, Pin Your Opponent, Break Another's Pin, Use Opponent's Weapon)

What's mostly unclear is on how many attacks you get, should you decide to opt for attacks. Does resorting to attacks require a standard action or a full-round action? After much thought, I'd be inclined to believe that, as with attacking normally, you get to use one attack as a standard action or multiple attacks as a full-round action. The only difference with regular combat is that the only additional attacks you can make are those granted by virtue of a high BAB. Thus, contrary to what I've stated above, the bear would receive only two chances to attack while grappling. It can use any of its natural weapons in conjunction with the Attack Your Opponent action, although they would be subjected to the usual penalty on attack rolls for iterative attacks (-5 cumulative penalty on each subsequent attack).

2) The improved grab ability does not says that it REPLACES the grapple damage. Some people read that the bear would do, as damage:
grappe damage (size based, 1d4 for large)+STR+claw+STR again.
Other people says that improved grab does not give the STR bonus again.
Other people says that it is just claw+STR as you said.
It is not clear who is right.
You're incorrect on this issue as well. MM310 states that "A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold."

Grapple rules are a mess
So very true.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
spikevampire 07-23-07, 07:43 PM	Only a simple question, if i grapple someone with a monster that have improved grab as special ability can i make more than one grapple check because my high base attack? if i am a dire bear for example can i make 2 grapple check with -20 and inflict damage with my bite and next make the claws attacks?
Marcus Majarra 07-23-07, 11:45 PM	You're confusing lots of unrelated things: 1) If your base attack bonus is high enough, you can make multiple grapple checks during your round as part of your full attack, each at a successively lower bonus. 2) The -20 penalty used in conjunction with Improved Grab only makes it so that the grappler is not considered to be grappling. This means it can still use its regular attacks against other creatures within reach and does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC. 3) Creatures only deal unarmed damage through grapple checks, unless they have the Improved Grab ability, in which case the damage done is equal to that of the natural weapon used to establish the grapple. 4) Only the natural weapon used for grappling can be used in conjunction with grapple checks, for creatures with Improved Grab. However, nothing prevents the creature from attacking normally with its other natural weapons (these take a -4 penalty on the attack roll if the creature is considered to be grappling, as normal for attacks with light weapons). Here's a best case scenario for you, using a dire bear as an example (+9 BAB/+23 grapple). It attacks and hits a creature with one of its claws as its first attack. It attempts to use Improved Grab, taking the -20 penalty in order to not being considered as grappling; its grapple check is made at +3. The check is successful. Now, since the bear has a BAB of +9, it can make a second grapple check with the same claw, this time at -2 (5 worse than the last one). This check succeeds, and instead of dealing unarmed damage, the bear deals claw damage again (thanks to Improved Grab). Finally, it can still make its remaining claw and bite attacks on the grappled creature at their normal attack bonuses (+19 and +13 respectively). Had the bear opted not to take the -20 penalty on grapple checks, it still could've made all these attacks, except that neither grapple check would've taken a penalty (they would be done with grapple modifiers of +23 and +18), whereas the other natural attacks would've taken a -4 penalty on the attack roll for using light weapons as part of a full attack when grappling (at +15 and +9 attack bonuses respectively). In this case, the bear would've been considered as grappling, meaning it no longer threatened any squares and lost its Dexterity bonus to AC against creatures it's not grappling.
spikevampire 07-24-07, 07:50 AM	Thanks for answer... i am really confused about it :D but i understand, so i could revalutate the giant snake
ShubNiggurath 07-24-07, 04:02 PM	Thank you Marcus, that was very clear. Only 2 things. 1)I don't think that you can mix attacks and grapples as you did. Grappling is a standard action, thus the bear, when he attacks and grabs, he can only finish attacking with his natural weapons (and the opponent counts as non-grappled, since there is no time order for his attacks). THEN, at the next turn he does his 2 BAB based grapple checks as you said. He can pin too, btw. 2) The improved grab ability does not says that it REPLACES the grapple damage. Some people read that the bear would do, as damage: grappe damage (size based, 1d4 for large)+STR+claw+STR again. Other people says that improved grab does not give the STR bonus again. Other people says that it is just claw+STR as you said. It is not clear who is right. Grapple rules are a mess
Anathema 07-24-07, 04:43 PM	A grapple is not a standard action, in and of itself. It replaces an attack; the same as trip, sunder, or disarm does.
Marcus Majarra 07-25-07, 11:16 PM	1)I don't think that you can mix attacks and grapples as you did. Grappling is a standard action, thus the bear, when he attacks and grabs, he can only finish attacking with his natural weapons (and the opponent counts as non-grappled, since there is no time order for his attacks). THEN, at the next turn he does his 2 BAB based grapple checks as you said. He can pin too, btw. You're incorrect in claiming this. Grappling is not a standard action. What's relatively unclear is what your action options are. From what I can gather from PHB156, there are four kinds of actions you can make while grappling: 1) Special standard actions (Activate Magic Item, Cast a Spell, Escape from Grapple through Escape Artist, Move) 2) Special move actions (Draw a Light Weapon) 3) Special full-round actions (Retrieve a Spell Component) 4) Attacks and substitutes for attacks (Attack Your Opponent, Damage Your Opponent, Escape from Grapple through grapple checks, Pin Your Opponent, Break Another's Pin, Use Opponent's Weapon) What's mostly unclear is on how many attacks you get, should you decide to opt for attacks. Does resorting to attacks require a standard action or a full-round action? After much thought, I'd be inclined to believe that, as with attacking normally, you get to use one attack as a standard action or multiple attacks as a full-round action. The only difference with regular combat is that the only additional attacks you can make are those granted by virtue of a high BAB. Thus, contrary to what I've stated above, the bear would receive only two chances to attack while grappling. It can use any of its natural weapons in conjunction with the Attack Your Opponent action, although they would be subjected to the usual penalty on attack rolls for iterative attacks (-5 cumulative penalty on each subsequent attack). 2) The improved grab ability does not says that it REPLACES the grapple damage. Some people read that the bear would do, as damage: grappe damage (size based, 1d4 for large)+STR+claw+STR again. Other people says that improved grab does not give the STR bonus again. Other people says that it is just claw+STR as you said. It is not clear who is right. You're incorrect on this issue as well. MM310 states that "A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold." Grapple rules are a mess So very true.