Grapple Wackiness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Grapple Wackiness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ferol, Debtor of Torm
06-23-07, 07:35 AM I was recently in a game with a dwarven grappler (fighter/barb). He used the scorpion claws (?) out of Sandstorm combined with armor spikes and claimed he could use them together in the same grapple attack.

He had a strength of 18 and his attack (one standard action) looked something like this:

1. Touch.
2. Roll grapple check.
3. Deal 1d6+6 (Scorpion Claw) + 1d6+6 (armor spikes).

He claimed that he got to deal the damage of both armor spikes and the scorpion claws in one grapple attack. He said both the scorpion claws and armor spikes counted as 2-handed weapons and got strength x 1.5 added to damage. I claimed BS but the GM at the time wasn't willing to figure it out. This was all at level 4.

This doesn't seem right. You can't actually use the scorpion claws and armor spikes in one grapple can you? I know you can use the armor spikes as an offhand attack, but thats only on a full attack action.

Someone please dispel this confusion and present as many rules citations as possible so I can confront the GM next time we play.
weasel0
06-23-07, 03:56 PM Stating a Grapple
Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.
If You’re Grappling

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.
Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)

The armor spikes are considered Martial weapons. Not 2-handed. Technically, they arn't even 1-handed. ;) I think the armor spikes are used in "Damage your Opponent" not "Attack your Opponent"
If I knew how the claws worked I could probably answer better. I could assume the work like punching daggers-light 1handed weapons that you would attack with. But here are the most relevant SRDs I could find for you on the subject.
Anathema
06-23-07, 04:17 PM They're definately not two handed weapons. Those are weapons you need both hands to wield, like a greatsword. Something you swing like a bat.

Second, you have to do more than win an opposed grapple check to do grappling damage.

First you have to avoid damage from an AoO you provoke when attempting to start a grapple.

Second you have to succeed on a melee touch attack.

Third you have to succeed on an opposed grapple check.

Only when he completes all three actions does he do any grappling attacks, which are the attacks that armor spikes and scorpion claws provide. Would they stack on a successful grapple attack? I would say no. Scorpion claws and Armor spikes don't provide automatic damage on a grapple check, they allow you to do weapon damage with a grapple attack, and you can't attack with two weapons in a grapple.

Scorpion claws are just that. Giant scorpion-like claws that fit around the forearm. If you need a way to visualize it; armor spikes allow you to pull your enemy in to them to do damage, and scorpion claws allow you to pinch your opponent with cutting blades wrapping around him. The claws themselves would get in the way of using the armor spikes.

That being said, even having them stack in the same round is woefully underpowered. To make a successful grappling attack, you have to succeed on a grapple check. An opposed roll like this isn't reliable enough to do damage, and it's just 1d6+str twice per round. At level 6 he would be able to do 2d4+1.5str twice per round with a greatsword without having to make several rolls to initiate and maintain a grapple to do it.
Marcus Majarra
06-24-07, 03:12 PM He can use both weapons when trying to damage his opponent while grappling. What this means is that he deals scorpion claw damage instead of nonlethal unarmed damage when grappling, and he gets to add his armor spike damage while doing so too. Neither is considered a two-handed weapon: total damage is 2d6+4.
Nom
06-24-07, 09:33 PM I was recently in a game with a dwarven grappler (fighter/barb). He used the scorpion claws (?) out of Sandstorm combined with armor spikes and claimed he could use them together in the same grapple attack.I don't know about scorpion claws, but I can deal with the rest of it.
He had a strength of 18 and his attack (one standard action) looked something like this:

1. Touch.
2. Roll grapple check.
3. Deal 1d6+6 (Scorpion Claw) + 1d6+6 (armor spikes).

He claimed that he got to deal the damage of both armor spikes and the scorpion claws in one grapple attack. He said both the scorpion claws and armor spikes counted as 2-handed weapons and got strength x 1.5 added to damage. I claimed BS but the GM at the time wasn't willing to figure it out. This was all at level 4.When grappling, you have two primary ways of injuring your opponent:

* "Attack your opponent": make a regular melee attack with a wielded light weapon at -4. May only use a single weapon in this manner (thus no TWF or multiple natural weapons).

* "Damage your opponent": make an opposed grapple check. If successful, deal unarmed strike damage.

If you have a high BAB and a full round action, you can do these things more than once (subject to above restrictions) with your BAB reducing as normal for iterative attacks. The rules are silent as to whether extra attacks (eg haste or flurry) apply in grapples; I see no good reason to prevent them. TWF and multiple natural attacks explicitly do not apply.

When you successfully initiate a grapple, you damage your opponent exactly as if you'd used the "damage your opponent" option. Normally, this is your unarmed strike damage (and thus nonlethal). If you have some form of Improved Unarmed Strike (or used Improved Grab or Constrict) then you deal the appropriate lethal damage.

Armour spikes allow you to deal "extra piercing damage" on a successful grapple check. The PH fails to specify whether this is instead of or in addition to your unarmed strike damage, but the FAQ clearly rules that it replaces it (18 May 07, page 46). Armour spikes are a light weapon, so "wielding them two handed in a grapple" wouldn't gain x1.5 Str even if it could be done at all.

Without seeing the scorpion claws I can't comment on their effect in the grapple. What is quite certain is that you apply Str to damage once only per attack resolution. Even if he could use both claws and spikes for "damage your opponent" (which is dubious considering the FAQ rule that you deal unarmed damage or spike damage), he only adds Str to damage once.
maharai23
06-24-07, 09:43 PM Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.

Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.)

My ruling? Spikes deal extra piercing damage, or can be used as a light weapon.

When using spikes to deal extra piercing damage, you use damage your opponent, rules, gaining nonlethal unarmed strike damage + armor spike damage + strength bonus (once).

When using spikes as a light weapon in a grapple, you may use them as a light weapon, and make an attack at a -4 penalty. In this case, you get armor spike damage + strength bonus (once).

If you have a better grapple check than your foe, the first is better. If your opponent is the superior grappler, or have a much greater chance of hitting an attack at a -4 penalty than winning the grapple, the second is better.
Anathema
06-24-07, 11:25 PM He can use both weapons when trying to damage his opponent while grappling. What this means is that he deals scorpion claw damage instead of nonlethal unarmed damage when grappling, and he gets to add his armor spike damage while doing so too. Neither is considered a two-handed weapon: total damage is 2d6+4.

But why do you say that?

From what I can see, there's a "grapple attack" and an "attack while grappling". It seems as if armor spikes deal bonus damage on a "grapple attack" (an attack made with an opposing grapple check); and scorpion claws allow you to initiate an "attack while grappling" (a melee attack made at -4 to hit).

As there are different sections for these types of attacks, "Attack your opponent" and "Damage your opponent", that these two actions are different and could not be used in conjunction. Armor spikes appear to only improve the damage you do when using the "Damage your opponent" action, which means that their bonus damage doesn't seem like it would apply when attacking with another weapon like a dagger either.
Leilond
06-25-07, 04:03 AM It doesn't exist a "grapple attack" at all
The rules let you do one of this two actions while graplling:
- Damage your opponent
Do a grapple check to delive unarmed damage. It isn't an attack at all. You cannot do it witha a dagger or any other "weapon", like "spiked gauntlet" or the like
- Attack your opponent
Use a light weapon to attack your opponent with -4 to hit. You'll deliver the proper weapon damage.

So, you cannot use "weapons" with the "damage your opponent" action and you cannot use your grapple abilities ad goodies while you use the "Attack your opponent action"
The "scorpion claws" are "weapons" and thus you cannot use them in the "damage your opponent" action
Anathema
06-25-07, 11:31 AM That's basically what I was saying, only giving the "Attack your opponent" option the name of "Grapple attack".

:ayyyy!:
Leilond
06-25-07, 11:35 AM That's basically what I was saying, only giving the "Attack your opponent" option the name of "Grapple attack".

:ayyyy!:

If you call it "grapple attack" what the hell is "attack while grappling"
Please, do not "create words" or we'll go on confusion. Use the rule definitions

There are
"Damage your opponent": opposed grapple check, no weapon damage, only unarmed damage + spicked armor
"Attack your opponent": roll to hit at -4, no spicked armor or unarmed damage, only weapon damage

There is no way to use both the claws and the spicked armor at the same time, because these two use two different form of trying to damage your opponent
Marcus Majarra
06-25-07, 02:05 PM But why do you say that?

From what I can see, there's a "grapple attack" and an "attack while grappling". It seems as if armor spikes deal bonus damage on a "grapple attack" (an attack made with an opposing grapple check); and scorpion claws allow you to initiate an "attack while grappling" (a melee attack made at -4 to hit).

As there are different sections for these types of attacks, "Attack your opponent" and "Damage your opponent", that these two actions are different and could not be used in conjunction. Armor spikes appear to only improve the damage you do when using the "Damage your opponent" action, which means that their bonus damage doesn't seem like it would apply when attacking with another weapon like a dagger either.

I was writing mostly from the "damage your opponent" option. Scorpion claws are special in that you can deal scorpion claw damage instead of normal nonlethal unarmed damage when trying to "damage your opponent." Armor spikes are not affected by this at all, since they merely add extra damage when using the "damage your opponent" option. Generally, when using scorpion claws while grappling, you'll be wanting to use the "damage your opponent" option, not the "attack your opponent" option.
Anathema
06-25-07, 02:24 PM Well, the scorpion claws entry does state that it allows you to deal damage with a successful grapple check, which does seem to imply that it's done in a "Damage your opponent" way .. but it doesn't specfically mention that it's done as a "damage your opponent" action .. though it can easily be presumed to be so.

:surrender Grapple rules, I give up :surrender
weasel0
06-25-07, 03:21 PM The real difference between the two is A) whether or not you need to use a weapon to deal damage B) which of the two is more likely for you to be successful at.

It's like the difference of melee and range. One uses str the other dex. Grappling, one uses a light weapon and a BAB at -4, the other is natural weapons with a grapple check(or a weapon that covers an unarmed strike-punching dagger, gauntlet, scorpion claws, armor spikes, etc.etc.).
Marcus Majarra
06-25-07, 03:25 PM Well, the scorpion claws entry does state that it allows you to deal damage with a successful grapple check, which does seem to imply that it's done in a "Damage your opponent" way .. but it doesn't specfically mention that it's done as a "damage your opponent" action .. though it can easily be presumed to be so.
Actually, it's the only way to do so, as you normally need not succeed at a grapple check to attack an opponent with a light weapon while grappling. The only way that damaging your opponent would require for you to make a grapple check is using the "damage your opponent" option.
maharai23
06-25-07, 03:41 PM Presumably, if they both can count as light weapons, then either could be done with both. If you choose the "Attack your opponent" option, and resolve them as light weapons, then you could conceivably get them both with the "Dual Strike" feat (Complete Adventurer, I believe, and combos really well with some of the weapon style feats in Complete Warrior).

Otherwise, unless scorpion claw deals its damage in place of, or instead of unarmed damage, there'd be little way to rule both damaging on one "damage your opponent" grapple check.

It would be helpful to have the specific entry for the weapon.
Marcus Majarra
06-25-07, 05:23 PM Here's the entry. May it provide closure for this discussion.

Designed as grappling weapons, scorpion claws are worn over the forearm. These metal weapons resemble scorpion pincers, and they open and close by means of an internal mechanical handle. Scorpion claws grant you a +4 bonus on grapple checks and can be used to deal slashing damage with a successful grapple check. The open claws can be used as a slashing weapon in melee combat, while the closed pincers can be used as a piercing weapon. The claws can be opened or closed as a free action. Since the claws strap onto the arm, you get a +4 bonus on opposed checks to avoid being disarmed. Scorpion claws come in pairs; the cost and weight given is for two.

Arguably, the Secrets of Xen'drik scorpion claw gauntlets are less ambiguous.
Nom
06-25-07, 09:55 PM "and can be used to deal slashing damage on a successful grapple check". In rules parlance that's quite clear: when using "damage your opponent" you can deal damage according to the scorpion claws rather than your normal unarmed strike. They work in exactly the same way as IUS or Improved Grab.

Spiked armour doesn't use that language, although the FAQ entry effectively says that it should. If we don't use that and instead treat it as "extra piercing damage", your medium spiked armour would deal +1d6 piercing damage on any successful "damage your opponent" grapple check. Str bonus and anything else wouldn't apply to the spikes, but to the normal damage used for "damage your opponent".

And the scorpion claws do not deal x1.5 Str bonus to damage.
Terraneaux
06-26-07, 02:18 AM Spiked Armor works like the constrict special attack. The wording on scorpion claws may be because it is not actually a light weapon; I don't have the table in front of me.
maharai23
06-26-07, 02:34 AM 1) Scorp claws are not a light weapon. Thus, the only option available is "damage your opponent". It does not state that the damage replaces unarmed damage, I'd say no, it doesn't stack with armor spikes. The ruling could go either way, though.
lint trap
06-26-07, 10:11 AM It cracks me up when players manage to bluff their DM into accepting ludicrous rulings. The "wishful thinking" school of character design is pretty common when playing with new DMs, either because they're not familiar with the rules or they think it would be "mean" to correct a player. I've never been sure whether the players who make these characters actually believe the rules work this way, or if they know they're decieving their DM.
Morray
06-27-07, 10:28 AM I'm seeing a few confusing statments that for my own peace of mind would like to clarify.

'Attack your opponent' is exactly that, an attack. You can use an unarmed strike, natural weapons, or a light weapon.

'Damage your opponent' is not an attack, it's basically squeezing the grappled opponent to damage them.

Damage Your Opponent
While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.

It is not an unarmed 'attack' it is wrestling to the point of harming. If what this player is suggesting is that he's wrestling with the opponent, from what I'm seeing he can use both items to damage.

With a grapple check (giving the opponent the oppertunity to oppose it) you deal nonleathal damage. The claws and spikes however would add leathal damage on top of this, only at the 1d6 for each item. The strength damage would be to the non-leathal from being squeezed. Unless he's a monk, which makes the damage lethal.

But then I could just be crazy in thinking if some guy is pinning you to the ground with pincers on his arms and spikes coming from his chest that it would do some major damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ferol, Debtor of Torm 06-23-07, 07:35 AM	I was recently in a game with a dwarven grappler (fighter/barb). He used the scorpion claws (?) out of Sandstorm combined with armor spikes and claimed he could use them together in the same grapple attack. He had a strength of 18 and his attack (one standard action) looked something like this: 1. Touch. 2. Roll grapple check. 3. Deal 1d6+6 (Scorpion Claw) + 1d6+6 (armor spikes). He claimed that he got to deal the damage of both armor spikes and the scorpion claws in one grapple attack. He said both the scorpion claws and armor spikes counted as 2-handed weapons and got strength x 1.5 added to damage. I claimed BS but the GM at the time wasn't willing to figure it out. This was all at level 4. This doesn't seem right. You can't actually use the scorpion claws and armor spikes in one grapple can you? I know you can use the armor spikes as an offhand attack, but thats only on a full attack action. Someone please dispel this confusion and present as many rules citations as possible so I can confront the GM next time we play.
weasel0 06-23-07, 03:56 PM	Stating a Grapple Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. If You’re Grappling When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check. Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) The armor spikes are considered Martial weapons. Not 2-handed. Technically, they arn't even 1-handed. ;) I think the armor spikes are used in "Damage your Opponent" not "Attack your Opponent" If I knew how the claws worked I could probably answer better. I could assume the work like punching daggers-light 1handed weapons that you would attack with. But here are the most relevant SRDs I could find for you on the subject.
Anathema 06-23-07, 04:17 PM	They're definately not two handed weapons. Those are weapons you need both hands to wield, like a greatsword. Something you swing like a bat. Second, you have to do more than win an opposed grapple check to do grappling damage. First you have to avoid damage from an AoO you provoke when attempting to start a grapple. Second you have to succeed on a melee touch attack. Third you have to succeed on an opposed grapple check. Only when he completes all three actions does he do any grappling attacks, which are the attacks that armor spikes and scorpion claws provide. Would they stack on a successful grapple attack? I would say no. Scorpion claws and Armor spikes don't provide automatic damage on a grapple check, they allow you to do weapon damage with a grapple attack, and you can't attack with two weapons in a grapple. Scorpion claws are just that. Giant scorpion-like claws that fit around the forearm. If you need a way to visualize it; armor spikes allow you to pull your enemy in to them to do damage, and scorpion claws allow you to pinch your opponent with cutting blades wrapping around him. The claws themselves would get in the way of using the armor spikes. That being said, even having them stack in the same round is woefully underpowered. To make a successful grappling attack, you have to succeed on a grapple check. An opposed roll like this isn't reliable enough to do damage, and it's just 1d6+str twice per round. At level 6 he would be able to do 2d4+1.5str twice per round with a greatsword without having to make several rolls to initiate and maintain a grapple to do it.
Marcus Majarra 06-24-07, 03:12 PM	He can use both weapons when trying to damage his opponent while grappling. What this means is that he deals scorpion claw damage instead of nonlethal unarmed damage when grappling, and he gets to add his armor spike damage while doing so too. Neither is considered a two-handed weapon: total damage is 2d6+4.
Nom 06-24-07, 09:33 PM	I was recently in a game with a dwarven grappler (fighter/barb). He used the scorpion claws (?) out of Sandstorm combined with armor spikes and claimed he could use them together in the same grapple attack.I don't know about scorpion claws, but I can deal with the rest of it. He had a strength of 18 and his attack (one standard action) looked something like this: 1. Touch. 2. Roll grapple check. 3. Deal 1d6+6 (Scorpion Claw) + 1d6+6 (armor spikes). He claimed that he got to deal the damage of both armor spikes and the scorpion claws in one grapple attack. He said both the scorpion claws and armor spikes counted as 2-handed weapons and got strength x 1.5 added to damage. I claimed BS but the GM at the time wasn't willing to figure it out. This was all at level 4.When grappling, you have two primary ways of injuring your opponent: * "Attack your opponent": make a regular melee attack with a wielded light weapon at -4. May only use a single weapon in this manner (thus no TWF or multiple natural weapons). * "Damage your opponent": make an opposed grapple check. If successful, deal unarmed strike damage. If you have a high BAB and a full round action, you can do these things more than once (subject to above restrictions) with your BAB reducing as normal for iterative attacks. The rules are silent as to whether extra attacks (eg haste or flurry) apply in grapples; I see no good reason to prevent them. TWF and multiple natural attacks explicitly do not apply. When you successfully initiate a grapple, you damage your opponent exactly as if you'd used the "damage your opponent" option. Normally, this is your unarmed strike damage (and thus nonlethal). If you have some form of Improved Unarmed Strike (or used Improved Grab or Constrict) then you deal the appropriate lethal damage. Armour spikes allow you to deal "extra piercing damage" on a successful grapple check. The PH fails to specify whether this is instead of or in addition to your unarmed strike damage, but the FAQ clearly rules that it replaces it (18 May 07, page 46). Armour spikes are a light weapon, so "wielding them two handed in a grapple" wouldn't gain x1.5 Str even if it could be done at all. Without seeing the scorpion claws I can't comment on their effect in the grapple. What is quite certain is that you apply Str to damage once only per attack resolution. Even if he could use both claws and spikes for "damage your opponent" (which is dubious considering the FAQ rule that you deal unarmed damage or spike damage), he only adds Str to damage once.
maharai23 06-24-07, 09:43 PM	Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check. Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) My ruling? Spikes deal extra piercing damage, or can be used as a light weapon. When using spikes to deal extra piercing damage, you use damage your opponent, rules, gaining nonlethal unarmed strike damage + armor spike damage + strength bonus (once). When using spikes as a light weapon in a grapple, you may use them as a light weapon, and make an attack at a -4 penalty. In this case, you get armor spike damage + strength bonus (once). If you have a better grapple check than your foe, the first is better. If your opponent is the superior grappler, or have a much greater chance of hitting an attack at a -4 penalty than winning the grapple, the second is better.
Anathema 06-24-07, 11:25 PM	He can use both weapons when trying to damage his opponent while grappling. What this means is that he deals scorpion claw damage instead of nonlethal unarmed damage when grappling, and he gets to add his armor spike damage while doing so too. Neither is considered a two-handed weapon: total damage is 2d6+4. But why do you say that? From what I can see, there's a "grapple attack" and an "attack while grappling". It seems as if armor spikes deal bonus damage on a "grapple attack" (an attack made with an opposing grapple check); and scorpion claws allow you to initiate an "attack while grappling" (a melee attack made at -4 to hit). As there are different sections for these types of attacks, "Attack your opponent" and "Damage your opponent", that these two actions are different and could not be used in conjunction. Armor spikes appear to only improve the damage you do when using the "Damage your opponent" action, which means that their bonus damage doesn't seem like it would apply when attacking with another weapon like a dagger either.
Leilond 06-25-07, 04:03 AM	It doesn't exist a "grapple attack" at all The rules let you do one of this two actions while graplling: - Damage your opponent Do a grapple check to delive unarmed damage. It isn't an attack at all. You cannot do it witha a dagger or any other "weapon", like "spiked gauntlet" or the like - Attack your opponent Use a light weapon to attack your opponent with -4 to hit. You'll deliver the proper weapon damage. So, you cannot use "weapons" with the "damage your opponent" action and you cannot use your grapple abilities ad goodies while you use the "Attack your opponent action" The "scorpion claws" are "weapons" and thus you cannot use them in the "damage your opponent" action
Anathema 06-25-07, 11:31 AM	That's basically what I was saying, only giving the "Attack your opponent" option the name of "Grapple attack". :ayyyy!:
Leilond 06-25-07, 11:35 AM	That's basically what I was saying, only giving the "Attack your opponent" option the name of "Grapple attack". :ayyyy!: If you call it "grapple attack" what the hell is "attack while grappling" Please, do not "create words" or we'll go on confusion. Use the rule definitions There are "Damage your opponent": opposed grapple check, no weapon damage, only unarmed damage + spicked armor "Attack your opponent": roll to hit at -4, no spicked armor or unarmed damage, only weapon damage There is no way to use both the claws and the spicked armor at the same time, because these two use two different form of trying to damage your opponent
Marcus Majarra 06-25-07, 02:05 PM	But why do you say that? From what I can see, there's a "grapple attack" and an "attack while grappling". It seems as if armor spikes deal bonus damage on a "grapple attack" (an attack made with an opposing grapple check); and scorpion claws allow you to initiate an "attack while grappling" (a melee attack made at -4 to hit). As there are different sections for these types of attacks, "Attack your opponent" and "Damage your opponent", that these two actions are different and could not be used in conjunction. Armor spikes appear to only improve the damage you do when using the "Damage your opponent" action, which means that their bonus damage doesn't seem like it would apply when attacking with another weapon like a dagger either. I was writing mostly from the "damage your opponent" option. Scorpion claws are special in that you can deal scorpion claw damage instead of normal nonlethal unarmed damage when trying to "damage your opponent." Armor spikes are not affected by this at all, since they merely add extra damage when using the "damage your opponent" option. Generally, when using scorpion claws while grappling, you'll be wanting to use the "damage your opponent" option, not the "attack your opponent" option.
Anathema 06-25-07, 02:24 PM	Well, the scorpion claws entry does state that it allows you to deal damage with a successful grapple check, which does seem to imply that it's done in a "Damage your opponent" way .. but it doesn't specfically mention that it's done as a "damage your opponent" action .. though it can easily be presumed to be so. :surrender Grapple rules, I give up :surrender
weasel0 06-25-07, 03:21 PM	The real difference between the two is A) whether or not you need to use a weapon to deal damage B) which of the two is more likely for you to be successful at. It's like the difference of melee and range. One uses str the other dex. Grappling, one uses a light weapon and a BAB at -4, the other is natural weapons with a grapple check(or a weapon that covers an unarmed strike-punching dagger, gauntlet, scorpion claws, armor spikes, etc.etc.).
Marcus Majarra 06-25-07, 03:25 PM	Well, the scorpion claws entry does state that it allows you to deal damage with a successful grapple check, which does seem to imply that it's done in a "Damage your opponent" way .. but it doesn't specfically mention that it's done as a "damage your opponent" action .. though it can easily be presumed to be so. Actually, it's the only way to do so, as you normally need not succeed at a grapple check to attack an opponent with a light weapon while grappling. The only way that damaging your opponent would require for you to make a grapple check is using the "damage your opponent" option.
maharai23 06-25-07, 03:41 PM	Presumably, if they both can count as light weapons, then either could be done with both. If you choose the "Attack your opponent" option, and resolve them as light weapons, then you could conceivably get them both with the "Dual Strike" feat (Complete Adventurer, I believe, and combos really well with some of the weapon style feats in Complete Warrior). Otherwise, unless scorpion claw deals its damage in place of, or instead of unarmed damage, there'd be little way to rule both damaging on one "damage your opponent" grapple check. It would be helpful to have the specific entry for the weapon.
Marcus Majarra 06-25-07, 05:23 PM	Here's the entry. May it provide closure for this discussion. Designed as grappling weapons, scorpion claws are worn over the forearm. These metal weapons resemble scorpion pincers, and they open and close by means of an internal mechanical handle. Scorpion claws grant you a +4 bonus on grapple checks and can be used to deal slashing damage with a successful grapple check. The open claws can be used as a slashing weapon in melee combat, while the closed pincers can be used as a piercing weapon. The claws can be opened or closed as a free action. Since the claws strap onto the arm, you get a +4 bonus on opposed checks to avoid being disarmed. Scorpion claws come in pairs; the cost and weight given is for two. Arguably, the Secrets of Xen'drik scorpion claw gauntlets are less ambiguous.
Nom 06-25-07, 09:55 PM	"and can be used to deal slashing damage on a successful grapple check". In rules parlance that's quite clear: when using "damage your opponent" you can deal damage according to the scorpion claws rather than your normal unarmed strike. They work in exactly the same way as IUS or Improved Grab. Spiked armour doesn't use that language, although the FAQ entry effectively says that it should. If we don't use that and instead treat it as "extra piercing damage", your medium spiked armour would deal +1d6 piercing damage on any successful "damage your opponent" grapple check. Str bonus and anything else wouldn't apply to the spikes, but to the normal damage used for "damage your opponent". And the scorpion claws do not deal x1.5 Str bonus to damage.
Terraneaux 06-26-07, 02:18 AM	Spiked Armor works like the constrict special attack. The wording on scorpion claws may be because it is not actually a light weapon; I don't have the table in front of me.
maharai23 06-26-07, 02:34 AM	1) Scorp claws are not a light weapon. Thus, the only option available is "damage your opponent". It does not state that the damage replaces unarmed damage, I'd say no, it doesn't stack with armor spikes. The ruling could go either way, though.
lint trap 06-26-07, 10:11 AM	It cracks me up when players manage to bluff their DM into accepting ludicrous rulings. The "wishful thinking" school of character design is pretty common when playing with new DMs, either because they're not familiar with the rules or they think it would be "mean" to correct a player. I've never been sure whether the players who make these characters actually believe the rules work this way, or if they know they're decieving their DM.
Morray 06-27-07, 10:28 AM	I'm seeing a few confusing statments that for my own peace of mind would like to clarify. 'Attack your opponent' is exactly that, an attack. You can use an unarmed strike, natural weapons, or a light weapon. 'Damage your opponent' is not an attack, it's basically squeezing the grappled opponent to damage them. Damage Your Opponent While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check. It is not an unarmed 'attack' it is wrestling to the point of harming. If what this player is suggesting is that he's wrestling with the opponent, from what I'm seeing he can use both items to damage. With a grapple check (giving the opponent the oppertunity to oppose it) you deal nonleathal damage. The claws and spikes however would add leathal damage on top of this, only at the 1d6 for each item. The strength damage would be to the non-leathal from being squeezed. Unless he's a monk, which makes the damage lethal. But then I could just be crazy in thinking if some guy is pinning you to the ground with pincers on his arms and spikes coming from his chest that it would do some major damage.