Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lootus 09-07-07, 10:23 PM	Grapple seems to interact with size, but how? I would like to nail down exactly how this works, along with a few other questions. When a grapple is initiated, a PC or creature moves into the target's space or (if using Improved Grab) pulls them into their space. In both cases the rules give limitations on the size of the target it can attempt to start a grapple with. In the case of Grapple (with no imp. grab), the grapple fails if you can't move into the target's space. Question 1a: What would prevent this from happening other than the initiator either being somehow stuck to the ground (or otherwise immobile), or an obstacle/terrain being in the way (a short fence, or something else)? Question 1b: Does size and space of the creatures have anything to do with this? Can you move into the target's space if the target's space is smaller than yours? (a medium creature grappling a tiny creature or a large grappling a medium) Question 2a: In the case of Improved Grab, what would prevent a creature from pulling its opponent into its space (other than target being stuck or behind an obstacle/terrain)? Question 2b: Can a creature pull a target into its space that occupies a bigger space than it does? Question 2c: Does a creature's Strength score come into play when pulling its target into its space (max lift)? (I don't see why it wouldn't) Question 3: Looking for opinions on this next one. As noted above, a grapple attempt (with no imp. grab) fails if you can't move into the target's space. Improved Grab doesn't say anything about the attempt failing if the creature can't pull its target into its space - should it follow the same rule (i.e. the grapple fails?) I can see it going both ways, but it seems easier to rule that it fails if the target can't be pulled in. Question 4: After much deciphering, this is how I think damage works with Improved Grab, natural attacks, and Constrict (actually I'm unsure if it's this way or another way, see below): Creature hits with natural weapon Grapple check (free action) (if monster loses, grapple fails)(automatic failure vs. a target equal or larger size) If creature has Constrict, deal Constrict damage (“Hold”) (if creature doesn't have Constrict, no extra damage is dealt when grapple is started beyond what was dealt by the attack that initiated the grab) Pull opponent into creature’s space (free action) If creature has more attacks remaining*, it can take another action, otherwise its turn ends On subsequent rounds, it can use it’s attack to deal damage with a grapple check (damage is the same as the natural attack that started the grapple, or, if the creature has Constrict, it deals Constrict damage instead, but not both) The reason I think this is the correct way is because it seems to fit the best with the grapple rules for dealing natural attack damage (in Step 3 "hold", and the "damage your opponent" action). A creature with Constrict deals extra damage when the grapple first starts, then in subsequent rounds, the creature's "damage your opponent" actions are based off of the constrict damage (which can do more damage than the initial attack). The problem is, they tossed in the word "automatically" for some reason, which I think is totally misleading, because a grapple check is still required to deal this "automatic" damage. Further, the wording about Constrict in the entry for Improved Grab makes it sound like Constrict is some kind of bonus damage that the grappled creature takes every round, which isn't the case(?) - it's only bonus on the initial successful grab. Adding to the mess is the wording for Constrict, which states that "If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab" - seemingly a reference to the initial grab, but worded so that one might think that a creature is doing both natural attack damage and constrict damage together every round. It's also very possible that this is the correct way - Constrict damage is supposed to happen as bonus damage whenever a creature deals natural attack damage in a grapple (in Step 3 "hold", and the "damage your opponent" action). Needless to say, there's a huge difference in the damage dealt to the PC depending on how this is interpreted. Question 5: In Improved Grab it states: "It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight." What does this imply? Is this basically saying that a creature with Imp. Grab can move normally when grappled, and doesn't need to use a standard action to move, like other grappled creatures? (as long as Str allows) Or are they just stating, "hey, don't forget you can move while grappled!" (this wouldn't surprise me in the least) (Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.) :banghead: Thanks in advance. * Either it didn't move and still has other natural attacks it can use (at -4), or (per FAQ), "a creature is allowed one grapple check for every attack that its base attack bonus would allow" Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight. Constrict (Ex): A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab. GRAPPLE Grapple Checks Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier Special Size Modifier: The special size modifier for a grapple check is as follows: Colossal +16, Gargantuan +12, Huge +8, Large +4, Medium +0, Small –4, Tiny –8, Diminutive –12, Fine –16. Use this number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making an attack roll. Starting a Grapple To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses). Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2. Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3. Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are. In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie. Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target. If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1. Grappling Consequences While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited. No Threatened Squares: You don’t threaten any squares while grappling. No Dexterity Bonus: You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.) No Movement: You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check (see below) to move while grappling. If You’re Grappling When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. Activate a Magic Item: You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require a spell completion trigger. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item. Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check. Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage. Draw a Light Weapon: You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check. Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s). Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple. Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple. Retrieve a Spell Component: You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check. Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below). Break Another’s Pin: If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned. Use Opponent’s Weapon: If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a –4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action). You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action. If You’re Pinning an Opponent You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking. You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt (see Disarm). You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa). You can’t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape another’s grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break another’s pin while you are pinning an opponent. If You’re Pinned by an Opponent When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling. Joining a Grapple If your target is already grappling someone else, you can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target doesn’t get an attack of opportunity against you, and your grab automatically succeeds. You still have to make a successful opposed grapple check to become part of the grapple. If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, you pick one to make the opposed grapple check against. Multiple Grapplers Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple. When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent. From FAQ: When grappling, the order of events is as follows: starting the grapple (the “grab”), then grappling, then pinning, right? How many of these can you do in a round? Can you, in one attack, go all the way to pinned or is it based on the number of attacks you have? It’s the latter. You can grab someone and establish a hold with one attack, but pinning an opponent is an option only when you can make an attack and you already have a foe in your grasp (see If You’re Grappling in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook). To grab and pin someone in one turn, you have to have at least two attacks available that turn. Can you always use Escape Artist instead of a Strength check when you’re grappling, or is this only for escaping a grapple? You don’t make a Strength check when grappling; you make a grapple check, which is like a melee attack roll. (See Grapple Checks in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook). If a foe has grappled or pinned you, you can make an Escape Artist check to escape the grapple or break the pin. You cannot use an Escape Artist check for anything other than escape. If a creature with reach, such as an assassin vine, grapples you, it then pulls you into its space. Does this move happen all at once or is there a limit to how far you are pulled in a round? When an attacker grapples, the attacker must move into the defender’s space, not the other way around. If you can reach a foe and you establish a hold, you move into the foe’s space as part of the grapple attack; this movement is free and doesn’t count against your movement for the turn (see Starting a Grapple in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook). A monster with the Improved Grab special attack, such as an assassin vine, pulls the foe into its own space rather than moving into the foe’s space (see the Improved Grab entry in the Monster Manual glossary). This is also part of the attack and does not count as part of the attacker’s or defender’s movement. Can you score a critical hit with a grapple check made to damage your opponent? No. Despite its similarity, a grapple check is not an attack roll, and thus can’t score a critical hit (nor does it automatically succeed on a natural 20 or fail on a natural 1). How many attacks does a creature with multiple natural weapons get while it’s grappling? How many grapple checks can it make in a round? Under normal circumstances, a creature can can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling (and it takes a –4 penalty on such attacks; PH 156). A grappling dire bear can attack with either a claw or its bite. The rake special attack gives the creature “two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe” (and which don’t take the normal –4 penalty to such attacks; MM 314). A creature that chooses to make grapple checks in place of attacks—that is, to damage its opponent, escape from the grapple, move, pin its opponent, or use its opponent’s weapon—is allowed one grapple check for every attack that its base attack bonus would allow (even if it doesn’t normally make multiple attacks in this manner). These attacks deal damage as an unarmed strike made by a creature of that size (1d3 for Medium, 1d4 for Large, 1d6 for Huge, and so forth, plus its Strength modifier). A creature with BAB +0 to +5 may make one grapple check in place of an attack, BAB +6 to +10 two, BAB +11 to +15 three, and BAB +16 to +20 four. The dire bear, for example, may make two grapple checks in place of attacks, thanks to its base attack bonus of +9: one using its full BAB and the second using its BAB –5.
Marcus Majarra 09-08-07, 12:26 AM	1a) Anything that could prevent a creature from moving in a way that makes it so that it's occupying the opponent's square stops the grapple attempt at the point in which you have to move into your opponent's space. 1b) A larger creature can easily move into a smaller creature's space. It's just that the larger creature will not only occupy all the squares of the smaller creature, but others as well. 2a) Nothing can prevent a creature with Improved Grab to pull the grappled creature into its space (other than the grappled creature being somehow immovable). 2b) No. This is implicit in that Improved Grab only works against smaller creatures (or creatures your own size, in exception cases). Thus, no creature you can use Improved Grab against will occupy a space larger than yours. 2c) No, the Strength score doesn't come into play. Grappling is not merely moving a limp body across squares, even with Improved Grab. It's forcing the other creature to move in a way more favorable to you. Strength already comes into play as a modifier to grapple checks. 3) If both creatures cannot share a space, then the grapple cannot be maintained. It's far more likely that a creature without Improved Grab be unable to move into an opponent's square than a creature with Improved Grab be unable to pull a target into its space. 4) You've got it pretty much right, except that when a creature has Improved Grab and Constrict, it always deals Constrict damage in addition to the natural attack damage (from the attack that initiated the grapple) when damaging its opponent through grapple checks. Constrict damage doesn't replace Improved Grab damage. It adds to it. 5) You got it right: it doesn't need to use a standard action (or even make grapple checks) to move. 5)
Lootus 09-08-07, 01:09 AM	Thanks for helping me out Marcus. Regarding 2b, I should have noted some of the exception creatures that can use Imp. Grab on bigger opponents, such as the Choker and Darkmantle. edit: Question 2b would still be outstanding since many creatures can use Imp. Grab on targets of equal or larger size. I guess the creature would just pull the largest target's closest space(s) it occupies onto its space?
Lootus 09-08-07, 09:21 PM	Ok, now it's time for part 2. Question 6: If a creature with reach hits a target on the other side of a closer target, can it still pull the target into its space? (can it pull a target through another opponent's space?) Question 7: Considering this wording about multiple grapplers, are the following numbers correct? Multiple Grapplers Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple. Max others in grapple: Largest creature is Small: 4 Small 8 Tiny or smaller 2 Small, 4 Tiny or smaller 3 Small, 2 Tiny or smaller 1 Small, 6 Tiny or smaller Largest creature is Medium: 4 Medium 8 Small or smaller 2 Medium, 4 Small or smaller 3 Medium, 2 Small or smaller 1 Medium, 6 Small or smaller Largest creature is Large: 4 Large 8 Medium or smaller 2 Large, 4 Medium or smaller 3 Large, 2 Medium or smaller 1 Large, 6 Medium or smaller Largest creature is Huge: 4 Huge 8 Large or smaller 2 Huge, 4 Large or smaller 3 Huge, 2 Large or smaller 1 Huge, 6 Large or smaller Largest creature is Gargantuan: 4 Gargantuan 8 Huge or smaller 2 Gargantuan, 4 Huge or smaller 3 Gargantuan, 2 Huge or smaller 1 Gargantuan, 1 Huge or smaller Question 8: A creature with Improved Grab could potentially take -20 on its grapple check (and not be considered grappled) and then proceed to score a hit with its Improved Grab attack against a different target. Is it now grappling with two targets at once? (one in each tentacle, claw, or whatever)
Colmarr 09-09-07, 11:30 PM	Marcus pretty much nailed the answers to qns 1-5. I will add, just for clarification, this in relation to Qn 4: the constrict damage only applies if the grapple check is successful. I think you knew that but your wording was a little unclear. I would also note that I disagree with his answer to 2b. As you have noted, there are examples of creatures that can use Improved Grab on targets larger than themselves. In that case, the target is pulled so that one of its squares overlaps the "grabber's" square. In relation your other questions: Question 6: If a creature with reach hits a target on the other side of a closer target, can it still pull the target into its space? (can it pull a target through another opponent's space?) The rules aren't clear on this. Allies can generally move through each others' squares, but being grabbed is hardly normal movement. For ease of play, I would answer this question "yes". Question 7: Considering this wording about multiple grapplers, are the following numbers correct? They look good to me, with the exception that the total number of combatants is 5, not 4: "Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent". Question 8: A creature with Improved Grab could potentially take -20 on its grapple check (and not be considered grappled) and then proceed to score a hit with its Improved Grab attack against a different target. Is it now grappling with two targets at once? (one in each tentacle, claw, or whatever) Assuming the creature has two modes of attack capable of using Improved Grab (such as the choker), yes. However, many Improved Grab beasties use their mouth as their grab attack, so this tactic would not be valid for them.
Lootus 09-10-07, 06:39 AM	As you have noted, there are examples of creatures that can use Improved Grab on targets larger than themselves. In that case, the target is pulled so that one of its squares overlaps the "grabber's" square. Thanks for clarifying on 2b, that's what I was thinking would be the easiest way as well. They look good to me, with the exception that the total number of combatants is 5, not 4: "Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent". I wrote it as max others in grapple, so add 1 to each total - does that fix it? Assuming the creature has two modes of attack capable of using Improved Grab (such as the choker), yes. However, many Improved Grab beasties use their mouth as their grab attack, so this tactic would not be valid for them.Right, I was thinking of tentacles or claw type of attacks on this one. (although Gibbering Mouther would also qualify)
Lootus 09-11-07, 12:46 AM	Here's two more for you: Question 9:If you are not grappled, but you are attacking a pinned character with a ranged attack, do you still roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike? Question 10: This is further clarification for a monster with Improved Grab moving with a victim it has grappled. Specifically, it says the monster can "carry away"/"drag" the opponent. To me, this is saying that if I want my monsters to carry victims away, I need to make sure I have the monster's medium and heavy load encumberance at hand (based on Str and size), as well as its lowered speeds, if there's any question about whether a character's weight would be considered a medium load for the creature. For example, the poor Choker can grapple things up to Large size, but its Strength is 16, and it's Small, which means it's max load is 115.5 to 172.5 lb. There's a good chance that whatever it grabs is going to burden it with a heavy load (max Dex +1, check penalty -6, speed of 15 ft.). Do these encumberance effects only apply during a round when a monster makes any kind of movement when grappling a target? Does a 5-ft. step count? Can you even take a 5-ft. step while encumbered? If it also grapples with its victim to inflict damage in that same round, does it suffer any check penalty on its grapple checks? (that was actually 4 questions in one, sorry about that)
Colmarr 09-11-07, 01:04 AM	Yep, your comments in post #5 clear up my concerns. As to your further questions: Question 9:If you are not grappled, but you are attacking a pinned character with a ranged attack, do you still roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike? I'm not sure what you mean by this question. I assume you mean "Can an attacker freely target a creature that is using Improved Grab and taking the -20 penalty on grapple checks"? If so, the answer is yes. The randomised hit-and-miss of ranged attacks only applies when the "Defender is" (see the top of the Armor Class Modifiers table) grappling. In the case of a monster using Improved Grab and taking the -20 penalty, it is not considered grappling and that modifier does not apply. Question 10: ... Do these encumberance effects only apply during a round when a monster makes any kind of movement when grappling a target? Correct. The only advantage of Improved Grab is that you don't need to make grapple checks to move the grapple (presumably because such creatures don't use their locomotive limbs in the grapple). Does a 5-ft. step count? No. 5-ft steps are alwats 5-ft steps, regardless of encumberance. Can you even take a 5-ft. step while encumbered? Yes If it also grapples with its victim to inflict damage in that same round, does it suffer any check penalty on its grapple checks? (that was actually 4 questions in one, sorry about that) Nothing in the rules says it does, so no. BTW, the Gibbering Mouther's grapple rules have been erratad, so if you plan on using it, make sure to pick up the errata. IMO however, the errata doesn't fix the issues with the monster, but that's for another thread :)
Lootus 09-11-07, 07:44 AM	I'm not sure what you mean by this question. I assume you mean "Can an attacker freely target a creature that is using Improved Grab and taking the -20 penalty on grapple checks"? If so, the answer is yes. The randomised hit-and-miss of ranged attacks only applies when the "Defender is" (see the top of the Armor Class Modifiers table) grappling. In the case of a monster using Improved Grab and taking the -20 penalty, it is not considered grappling and that modifier does not apply. Thanks a lot for all the answers - this was more of a general grapple question, for anyone who is attacking a pinned character or creature. Next to the 'grappled' condition it has a "3" footnote, which notes that ranged attacks hit a random target in the grapple, but the "3" is not next to pinned - I would think they stack, but not sure. That's good to know about attacking a monster using the -20 option, thanks. :)
Colmarr 09-11-07, 06:53 PM	Ah, I see what you mean now. I don't think there's a RAW answer to that. The footnote 3 is not on the table next to pinned, only next to grappled. One argument is that only the "pinned" line applies and the randomised hit-and-miss doesn't apply. Another (equally valid) argument would be that both the "grappled" and "pinned" lines apply with their respective modifiers. I'd say it's up to each individual DM how they want to rule on it.
psipup 09-28-07, 01:23 AM	Let's add additional questions, using the gibbering mouther as an example once again, though any creature with multiple grappling appendages will do. The mouther can make six attacks as part of a full action, and each one that hits triggers improved grab and may result in a grapple. Let's say that all six attacks will work in a particular round. What is the effect if the first hit scores a successful grab as well? Now both creatures are considered grappled (unless the mouther takes a -20 on its check). When grappling, a creature normally doesn't attack as normal - doing so requires a successful grapple check, with high base attack bonus granting additional attacks in a round. Does this mean that the mouther's next five attacks are forefit? Also, let's say the -20 penalty is taken (unwise in the mouther's case most likely, but let's assume it continues to be 100% successful). Could the mouther 'grapple' the same creature additional times, up to the limit of 'multiple creatures in a single grapple'? If it grapples one target with, say, three mouths, all taking the -20 penalty so the mouther is not considered grappled itself at all, does the grappled creature need to escape each one seperately, as if they were individual creatures, or does the target escape with a single grapple check, since there's only one mouther actualy involved, despite the seperate attempts? Also, let's say that, as more rounds go by, the mouther manages to successfully hit with more mouths, let's even say all six. Does this mean that for the creature to get free, its grapple check to free itself needs to defeat six opposed grapple checks? I do not believe so, but I am not sure. To add to the dificulty, a mouther-specific question: Its blood-drain ability has the mouth 'attach' itself to the victim, removed only by ripping away or cutting off. This is done on a successful grapple check after the victim has already been grabbed. Does this mean that, no matter what either creature does, the grapple is maintained without effort until any and all attached mouths are detached, or can the grapple be ended as normal, with some mouths remaining attached but the creatures not being considered 'grappling' any longer? Some of these are mouther-specific, and so may be a result of poor exlmanation in the books, but some would apply to other creatures as well, such as giant squids and the like. For that it's worth...
Lootus 09-30-07, 10:31 PM	For starters, it looks like the errata on the Gibbering Mouther cleared up its multiple bite/grab problems. Engulf was replaced with Swallow Whole, and Blood Drain became something that only happens to a swallowed victim. Let's add additional questions, using the gibbering mouther as an example once again, though any creature with multiple grappling appendages will do. The mouther can make six attacks as part of a full action, and each one that hits triggers improved grab and may result in a grapple. Let's say that all six attacks will work in a particular round. What is the effect if the first hit scores a successful grab as well? Now both creatures are considered grappled (unless the mouther takes a -20 on its check). If it doesn't take -20, yes, they are now both grappled. When grappling, a creature normally doesn't attack as normal - doing so requires a successful grapple check, with high base attack bonus granting additional attacks in a round. Does this mean that the mouther's next five attacks are forefit? Yes, the other 5 bite attacks are forfeit. If the Mouther was doing a full attack and its first bite attack hits and it wins the grapple check, then the Mouther and its target are both grappling. The pre-errata version of Blood Drain looked more like a Constrict, but the post-errata version is only usable on "swallowed" opponents. In either case, the mouther has no damage-dealing options left for the first round of the grapple, because it doesn't have a high enough base attack bonus to get extra grapple checks. If it did, then it could make another "hold" check to either deal 1 point of bite damage, or use its Swallow Whole ability. Also, let's say the -20 penalty is taken (unwise in the mouther's case most likely, but let's assume it continues to be 100% successful). Could the mouther 'grapple' the same creature additional times, up to the limit of 'multiple creatures in a single grapple'? If it grapples one target with, say, three mouths, all taking the -20 penalty so the mouther is not considered grappled itself at all, does the grappled creature need to escape each one seperately, as if they were individual creatures, or does the target escape with a single grapple check, since there's only one mouther actualy involved, despite the seperate attempts? Also, let's say that, as more rounds go by, the mouther manages to successfully hit with more mouths, let's even say all six. Does this mean that for the creature to get free, its grapple check to free itself needs to defeat six opposed grapple checks? I do not believe so, but I am not sure. Interesting! Let's use the Giant Octopus, considering the Mouther errata. The Octopus takes a full attack and grabs its target with a -20 using its first tentacle attack. Octopus is not grappled, victim is grappled. The Octopus attacks the grappled target with its second tentacle attack. If it hits the victim, it grabs it again, with a -20. Octopus is not grappled, victim is grappled. The Octopus attacks the grappled target with its third tentacle attack. If it hits the victim, it grabs it again, with a -20. Octopus is not grappled, victim is grappled. Repeat for the next 7 tentacles. Next round, the victim tries to escape the grapple and rolls against the Octopus (who has -20). If this check is successful, is the victim completely free, or does he repeat for the next 9 tentacles? Does the Octopus take a cumulative -20 on each additional grapple check in that round, or just once for each tentacle? If the -20 is cumulative (I think it is), the Octopus (or most any other creature) could not really keep more than a single victim at a time held in this way. (edit: if -20 is cumulative, replace above numbers with -20/-40/-60/etc.) On a related note, there are some similar options that do something like this. If a creature has Swallow Whole, a swallowed target that escapes the stomach ends up in the mouth, still grappled but no longer swallowed. A grappled target who escapes the pin ends up still grappling, but no longer pinned. To add to the dificulty, a mouther-specific question: Its blood-drain ability has the mouth 'attach' itself to the victim, removed only by ripping away or cutting off. This is done on a successful grapple check after the victim has already been grabbed. Does this mean that, no matter what either creature does, the grapple is maintained without effort until any and all attached mouths are detached, or can the grapple be ended as normal, with some mouths remaining attached but the creatures not being considered 'grappling' any longer? In pre-errata Blood Drain, it looked like even though a mouth that's attached and draining every round could be ripped or cut off, a victim could still escape the entire grapple as normal (with a grapple check or Escape Artist). However...let's look at the Mimic, whose adhesive does what you are talking about, keeps anyone stuck to it auto-grappled. The only advantage for the Mimic to sticking both pseudopods to the same opponent (by using a standard action to attack with a natural weapon at -4) would be that if the first pseudopod was chopped off somehow, the target would still be grappled. Otherwise, the Mimic might as well keep its other natural weapon free. If the Mimic took -20 on its check (it doesn't have to make a grapple check for the grab, so I'm not sure if it can do this), then its not considered grappled and can use its second pseudopod attack on a target outside the grapple - possibly auto-grabbing them as well on a successful hit. In the following rounds, the Mimic could choose one of these opponents each round to Crush ("hold") with a grapple check, and take -20 to remain not grappled, so it retains its +1 Dex bonus to AC and can make Attacks of Opportunity (although it would have no weapons free to make an AoO). (edit: of course, a Mimic doesn't have Improved Grab, so it doesn't even have the -20 option...) (edit: removed octopus having chance to hit itself - that's for ranged attacks only, although the defender would still be considered grappled, even though the octopus wouldn't...)
Colmarr 10-02-07, 03:41 AM	The mouther can make six attacks as part of a full action.. What is the effect if the first hit scores a successful grab as well? Now both creatures are considered grappled (unless the mouther takes a -20 on its check)... Does this mean that the mouther's next five attacks are forefit? Correct. A grappled creature cannot make "attacks". They can only take the actions listed under the grapple entry. Also, let's say the -20 penalty is taken (unwise in the mouther's case most likely, but let's assume it continues to be 100% successful). Could the mouther 'grapple' the same creature additional times, up to the limit of 'multiple creatures in a single grapple'? If it grapples one target with, say, three mouths, all taking the -20 penalty so the mouther is not considered grappled itself at all, does the grappled creature need to escape each one seperately, as if they were individual creatures, or does the target escape with a single grapple check, since there's only one mouther actualy involved, despite the seperate attempts? The rules for escaping a grapple refer to the number of "opponents" grappling you. In this case, there is only one opponent and a successful grapple check means the mouther's victim escapes entirely. Also, let's say that, as more rounds go by, the mouther manages to successfully hit with more mouths, let's even say all six. Does this mean that for the creature to get free, its grapple check to free itself needs to defeat six opposed grapple checks? I do not believe so, but I am not sure. No, for the reasons given for the previous question. To add to the dificulty, a mouther-specific question: Its blood-drain ability has the mouth 'attach' itself to the victim, removed only by ripping away or cutting off. This is done on a successful grapple check after the victim has already been grabbed. Does this mean that, no matter what either creature does, the grapple is maintained without effort until any and all attached mouths are detached, or can the grapple be ended as normal, with some mouths remaining attached but the creatures not being considered 'grappling' any longer? As Lootus has pointed out, the Gibbering Mouther has been quite extensively erratad because it was a massive rules nightmare under the original incarnation. Make sure you check its new rules before using it :D However...let's look at the Mimic, whose adhesive does what you are talking about, keeps anyone stuck to it auto-grappled. Hmm. I've never run a Mimic in a campaign so I haven't had to deal with it. Per the RAW and the Mimic entry, it doesn't have Improved Grab or a similarly worded ability, so it does not even have the option of taking the -20 to count as not being grappled. Once the Mimic hits an opponent with a slam, it counts as grappled and can therefore make no further attacks other than as allowed under the grapple rules.
Lootus 10-02-07, 08:04 AM	Hmm. I've never run a Mimic in a campaign so I haven't had to deal with it. Per the Raw and the Mimic entry, it doesn't have Improved Grab or a similarly worded ability, so it does not even have the option of taking the -20 to count as not being grappled. Once the Mimic hits an opponent with a slam, it counts as grappled and can therefore make no further attacks other than as allowed under the grapple rules. Good catch, that certainly solves the problem. :)
Myzery78 10-03-07, 08:20 AM	Where are you getting this chance of hitting somebody other than the intended target in a grapple? While I think it'd make grappling monsters much more useful, I have yet to see this anywhere in the MM, DMG, or PHB so a page number would be great if you dont mind. Though for your octopus example, as long as hes taking the -20 penalty he is not grappled, only the victim is, and so he could never accidentally hit himself(if such a rule does exist for accidentally hitting the wrong target of a grapple).
ShadowChemosh 10-03-07, 03:31 PM	Where are you getting this chance of hitting somebody other than the intended target in a grapple? While I think it'd make grappling monsters much more useful, I have yet to see this anywhere in the MM, DMG, or PHB so a page number would be great if you dont mind. .. The rule is a listed in very small print on page 151 of the PHB. Its part of Table 8-6 and is footnote #3. Which is listed as only part of Ranged Attacks into a Grapple. LOL Its in a very easy to find spot no? :P You do not have this miss chance when someone has pinned someone as a pinned target is considered to not be moving. So no chance to hit the wrong targets when they are not moving anymore. Personally if you want more realistic and better rules for attacking into a grapple then check out Iron Heroes. At least they take into account that a Colossal sized dragon grappling with a tiny cat does not give a 50/50 chance of hitting the wrong target.
Myzery78 10-03-07, 04:53 PM	Hmm, good find. That does make grappling monsters a fair bit more useful without having to take the -20 penalty and attempt to remain ungrappled themselves.
Lootus 10-03-07, 10:39 PM	Good catch, random target is indeed only for ranged attacks into a grapple, and explains why it sounded strange when writing that part. (I suppose it might somehow be possible for the octopus/creature to use a ranged attack on its victim with its other tentacle, but let's not go there :) )