Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clem 11-05-07, 01:17 PM	I remember some mention that nonlethal damage inflicted via opposed grapple checks will ignore damage reduction. However, I've yet to come across a conclusive ruling on the matter. So I bring the matter here: can damage reduction apply to nonlethal damage? Does it apply under all conditions? I couldn't see it applying to exhaustion or heat damage, but I can't pin down a rule saying that it doesn't.
Slimgauge 11-05-07, 01:53 PM	Well, here's what the online SRD says about Damage Reduction Damage Reduction A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Exhaustion isn't a weapon or a natural attack, so DR doesn't come into play. Heat damage is almost certainly an energy attack and as such is explicitly exempted from DR. Non-lethal damage ? If it's inflicted by a weapon or a natural attack, it looks like DR applies. What does the online SRD say about damaging an opponent in a grapple with an opposed grapple check ? Damage Your Opponent While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check. Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage. It seems to boil down to "Is non-lethal damage dealt in a grapple by this method an unarmed strike ?" If so, here's what the SRD says about unarmed strikes. Unarmed Strike A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. So if the damage in an opposed grapple check is treated as an unarmed strike, and an unarmed strike is treated as a light weapon, then damage reduction applies.
clem 11-05-07, 02:15 PM	Thanks. That was an insightful and well-thought out reply. The question left hanging though is whether grapple damage is considered an unarmed strike. The phrasing in the SRD seems to imply they are equivalent as far as the damage they inflict. That's different than saying a grapple check is an unarmed strike, though. Hmm.
lancean 11-05-07, 05:23 PM	Yeah, let's face it... a sleeper hold just doesn't seem to do much against a Clay Golem. ;)
clem 11-05-07, 07:38 PM	But that's because a golem is immune to nonlethal damage, not because it has damage reduction.
PhaedrusXY 11-06-07, 12:36 AM	I think the first quote in the first post is pretty clear... Yes, DR normally applies to damage dealt from a grapple check. Whether it is non-lethal or not doesn't matter.
Axiomatic_vampire 11-07-07, 11:28 PM	Well, here's what the online SRD says about Damage Reduction Exhaustion isn't a weapon or a natural attack, so DR doesn't come into play. Heat damage is almost certainly an energy attack and as such is explicitly exempted from DR. Non-lethal damage ? If it's inflicted by a weapon or a natural attack, it looks like DR applies. What does the online SRD say about damaging an opponent in a grapple with an opposed grapple check ? It seems to boil down to "Is non-lethal damage dealt in a grapple by this method an unarmed strike ?" If so, here's what the SRD says about unarmed strikes. So if the damage in an opposed grapple check is treated as an unarmed strike, and an unarmed strike is treated as a light weapon, then damage reduction applies. Excellent analysis.