Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tos_shai_hulud 04-02-07, 12:36 AM	Grapple is handled much like all of the other attacks in D&D. It has no specific body part as a target. When a character says, "I grab both the BBEG's arms and twist them behind his back. If he attempts to move, I break them both." I say, ok, make a grapple check. The PC succeeds on the grapple check. The enemy attempts to move (since he is not pinned). I have the PC make another grapple attempt to deal damage without releasing the BBEG. The effects are that if released, the BBEG probably will not be very capable of somatic components for spells, as both his arms will be broken. Does anyone have any advice for adjudicating this? Granted the damage dealt was to his whole body, but the PC was clever to go for the arms. For the sake of fun, if the PC is capable of doing it, I say more power to him. But, by the same token, if the BBEG is really BB, he should be able to overcome his new handicap and still cast spells (perhaps with a concentration check). Would anyone be able to offer some house rules for this? Casting with broken arms?
Sander_Kaa 04-02-07, 02:56 AM	I think you should split the fluff (ie. "breaking" his arms) from the mechanics (grappling, readying an action to deal unarmed damage). Your PC tries to deal damage as a ready action. It's up to you to decide what exactly the damage does to the BBEG. However, some minor 10 damage doesn't break the 150HP-BBEG in my opinion... Good luck!
Leilond 04-02-07, 06:31 AM	Absolutely agree There is not "break the arm" rule at all There is the "pinning" rule, that work better in this situation D&D mechanics do not fit at all with "localized damage" like "wounding an eye" or "breaking a limb" Remove this possibility from the game... your DM life will be easier
mvincent 04-02-07, 02:35 PM	Does anyone have any advice for adjudicating this?If you can do enough damage to break all of something (i.e. bring it to below 0 HP) then you could instead break just part of something. This should also apply to creatures. You don't have to be unconscious when below 0 PH. A healing roll may or may not be required to stabilize the captive (depending on if all the damage were non-lethal), but I'd allow any desired breakage to occur once the opponent goes below 0 HP.
calvinNhobbes 04-02-07, 02:58 PM	Let the damage roll determine the damage. Just because a player says he wants to break the arm does not mean he does unless he does enough damage (as mvincent mentions, disabled or dying). Describe it instead as a progression as damage builds up. Example progression: severe pain -> muscle strains -> muscle pull -> minor torn ligament -> minor dislocation/major torn ligament -> complete dislocation -> hairline fracture -> complete fracture/compound fracture -> fracture with vessel laceration. Depending on the damage/hit point ratio, you may go through the progression are varying rates.
tos_shai_hulud 04-02-07, 03:07 PM	I am not certain if anyone here watches Ultimate Fighting Championship. I have only seen one match, but in the match, a grappler grabbed his brawler opponent's arm and snapped it. The man was very much conscious, and not in any way dying or disabled. In fact, the brawler flexed his arm and the once compound fracture was set by his own arm muscles. Then, he proceeded to beat the grappler into a bloody pile with the broken arm. Broken limbs do not indicate a BBEG is disabled in the least. They indicate limitations, and at lower levels, disablities, but nothing more than that. With a concentration check, they can be overcome. It does not seem like that would be too complicated, or anything of the sort. Perhaps a limb possesses 1/10 the hit points of the whole body. If that much damage is done to the limb, it is broken. It is not a lot to keep track of, nor is it a difficult house rule. Be that as it may, my question is about spellcasting with broken limbs. Assuming that however the arms become broken, they are broken, does anyone have advice on the nature of the concentration check to be able to perform the somatic components with broken arms? Or perhaps should it work similarly to an area of silence with a percent failure? A combination of the two?
calvinNhobbes 04-02-07, 03:40 PM	I am not certain if anyone here watches Ultimate Fighting Championship. Yes, I watch it all the time. I have actually gone to minor league fights, and my best friend actually does brazilian jiujitzu. I have only seen one match, but in the match, a grappler grabbed his brawler opponent's arm and snapped it. Arm bars are more for dislocating the elbow, which does sometimes break the trochlear process of the ulna but not always. Dislocations are not fractures and can snap back into place on their own. The joint is stretched and weakened but the adrenaline numbs the pain (I know, I dislocated my finger and clavicle playing football. The clavicle snapped back in on its own and I kept playing. The finger I had snapped back in on the sideline and went back in next play) The man was very much conscious, and not in any way dying or disabled. In fact, the brawler flexed his arm and the once compound fracture was set by his own arm muscles. Then, he proceeded to beat the grappler into a bloody pile with the broken arm. I don't think you understand what a compound fracture is. This is when the broken bone sticks out through the skin. The UFC would automatically stop the fight if this happened. Like I said it was a dislocation which can snap back in on their own and are not completely disabling, but definitely a significant injury. Broken limbs do not indicate a BBEG is disabled in the least. They indicate limitations, and at lower levels, disablities, but nothing more than that. There are no rules for broken limbs in the game. The hit point system is abstract. If you want to institute house rules to allow called shots and penalties as you get injured, go ahead. Perhaps the variant wound point/vitality point system would work better for you. With a concentration check, they can be overcome. It does not seem like that would be too complicated, or anything of the sort. It is complicated, many before you have tried. But hey, give it a try maybe you figure it out for all of us. Perhaps a limb possesses 1/10 the hit points of the whole body. If that much damage is done to the limb, it is broken. It is not a lot to keep track of, nor is it a difficult house rule. See what happens when a NPC 1st level monk kicks the 1st level PC fighter for 2 damage in the leg and breaks his leg. Be that as it may, my question is about spellcasting with broken limbs. Assuming that however the arms become broken, they are broken, does anyone have advice on the nature of the concentration check to be able to perform the somatic components with broken arms? Or perhaps should it work similarly to an area of silence with a percent failure? A combination of the two? My advice and likely everyone elses' will be, don't do broken limbs. You PCs will not like 2 points of damage from a club breaking their legs. As far as concentration checks, follow the rules. The amount of damage done affects the DC.
tos_shai_hulud 04-02-07, 04:30 PM	My advice and likely everyone elses' will be, don't do broken limbs. You PCs will not like 2 points of damage from a club breaking their legs. As far as concentration checks, follow the rules. The amount of damage done affects the DC. Perhaps I should rephrase. Let's assume that no one broke anyone's limbs. Apparently that is a taboo thought process. What happens if a limb is broken and a NPC or PC attempts to cast a spell with somatic components? Would the broken limb have any effects? Who knows how it was broken. Perhaps I as a DM decided that my main NPC has a disability in that he is recovering from two broken arms. Who knows how it happened. It is not important. No damage is being done. The effect is he has two broken bones and is attempting somatic components. What sort of concentration check should be applied? (Since there is no damage being done, I cannot use the rules for damage done. It is broken bones. There are no rules for this.)
mvincent 04-02-07, 04:39 PM	What sort of concentration check should be applied?Depending on the breaks, you could treat the character as entangled (DC 15), or grappling/bound (cannot cast any spells requiring somatic components). The latter seems more appropriate (i.e. what the arm-breaker intended), and is a suitable mechanic to inflict on an NPC that has already been defeated. The former seems useful if to are house-ruling broken bones during an ongoing combat.
calvinNhobbes 04-02-07, 04:54 PM	In addition, if you are going to require someone to make a concentration check to cast a spell with a broken limb, are you also going require concentration checks for someone to attack with said limb, or take a move action with a broken leg, what about climbing or swimming, can they use tumble, penalties for grappling, etc, etc, etc....
tos_shai_hulud 04-02-07, 05:30 PM	In addition, if you are going to require someone to make a concentration check to cast a spell with a broken limb, are you also going require concentration checks for someone to attack with said limb, or take a move action with a broken leg, what about climbing or swimming, can they use tumble, penalties for grappling, etc, etc, etc.... I'm sure my NPC can handle it.
calvinNhobbes 04-02-07, 06:19 PM	I'm sure my NPC can handle it. Well, if all you're going to do is limit it to NPCs, then why roll at all. Just describe whatever is flavorful for the situation. No dice needed.
tos_shai_hulud 04-03-07, 12:16 AM	Currently it has only occurred to an NPC. If it occurs to a PC, then it will. Why argue with me about it? You are not part of my game. If you don't like broken limb rules, don't play with them. If my group does, then we will play with them. I don't see why you have such a problem with this.
Myzery78 04-03-07, 02:13 PM	You came asking for advice so you really shouldn't be so surprised when that advice isn't what you want to hear. As far as broken limbs go I would not allow any spells with somatic components to be cast. A werewolf spellcaster who goes into wolf form cant cast his spells because his limbs arent capable of the required movement. The same is true of a caster with two broken arms. No amount of concentration will allow you to do something you're incapable of. Broken arms are not distractions, they're a disability. People are not pointing out that allowing things like this is bad idea to be rude, they're doing it to help you out. If I can choose to grapple somebody and break their arms, next time I'll choose to grapple them and break their neck. Breaking one neck is certainly easier than breaking both arms at the same time.
MightyPotamus 04-03-07, 06:58 PM	I generally save the flavorful descriptions for when the enemy is finally felled. "You feel a sickening crunch as you opponent's arm twists wrechedly in your hands. He seems to have stopped trying to fight you and is quite obviously preocupied with the pain." This not only acts as a sort of "cookie" for doing something interesting in combat, but also gives you a brilliant opportunity to drop those oh so handy plot hooks that can really move a storyline-anyone for interrogating the surviving prisoners?
calvinNhobbes 04-04-07, 02:39 PM	Currently it has only occurred to an NPC. If it occurs to a PC, then it will. Why argue with me about it? You are not part of my game. If you don't like broken limb rules, don't play with them. If my group does, then we will play with them. I don't see why you have such a problem with this. If you don't want to hear advice, then don't ask for it.
jadehawk 04-04-07, 03:28 PM	The closest things to a broken/disabled limb I have heard of are sneak attack feats that allow you to substitute sneak dice for a certain effect. I think hamstring is the closest to a disabled limb I have heard of, but that would likely be your precedence for creating your own feat. Unfortunately this way about it, it would be specialized to characters with the sneak attack special ability (which for the most part is rogues). And while I know that this thread is already verging on conflagrant, I would like to say I at least empathize with the frustration of this system being limited in its localized damage. Now, I can already feel this turning into another "call shot" debate, and I would hate for that to happen. Perhaps we can agree that while call shots would liberate characters to act with true intent (like a high level fighter attempting to break someone's arm) it is summarily conflicting with ease of game mechanics. Anyone who has played GURPS should know what I am getting at with easy of game mechanics.
AQuebman 04-11-07, 02:14 PM	I have not had an opportunity to do it yet, but in my campaign I am coming up with a system of breaks/severe lacerations that I am thinking of rolling up for a PC or NPC when it matters after the person has been dropped to 0 or less. Now this would be random and have random severities but I think it could add some flavor without having the typical... *I want to twist his arms out of socket debate* I haven't consented with my players but i've thought about trying it out to see what the consequences of it would be. I believe with a little imagination which we should all have this could easily be done with spells as well as physical attacks.