Great Cleave off AAOs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Great Cleave off AAOs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pmurray@bigpond.com
12-02-07, 09:27 PM Can you really great cleave off AOOs? It's driving me nuts - the half ogre war hulk has a reach of 10' and great cleave. The moment anyone moves its fun times.

If only there were limits - eg: is there a rule that when you cleave, the next target must be standing next to (or within X ft of) the first?
Salla
12-02-07, 09:42 PM Yes, you can cleave off of AoOs, and there is no limit regarding distance, but there is, of course, the limit that after you only get the cleave after dropping a target to 0 HP or lower.

If you're throwing foes against this guy so weak that he can one-punch them, and they're just swarming him stupidly, they deserve what they get. :)
StevenO
12-02-07, 11:01 PM Yes, by RAW you may be able to (great) cleave off of an AoO into any available target.

While I have nothing against cleave granting an extra attack when the situation calls for it I (and others) have a terrible problem with the idea that you could drop a target with an AoO and then cleave into another target that you couldn't otherwise have attacked. A houserule is that Cleave "gives back" the attack used to trigger it (less any expendables like True Strike) thus if an AoO allow a cleave opportunity the character instead regains the use of that AoO. While this may step on Combat Reflexes just a little it solves a lot of questions that involve cleave opportunities outside of a character normal attack phase.
mvincent
12-03-07, 12:22 PM A houserule is that Cleave "gives back" the attack used to trigger it (less any expendables like True Strike) thus if an AoO allow a cleave opportunity the character instead regains the use of that AoO.Excellent solution.

In practice, I figure such mooks are designed die quickly anyway, so great cleave is the fighter's version of a fireball. But it can be particularly vexing to a BBEG if he is surrounded by such thoughtless mooks.
StevenO
12-03-07, 02:26 PM Excellent solution.

In practice, I figure such mooks are designed die quickly anyway, so great cleave is the fighter's version of a fireball. But it can be particularly vexing to a BBEG if he is surrounded by such thoughtless mooks.
Or if you want the RAW even more confusing look at a three way fight. If one side provokes an AoO from each of the other two and will die from either attack it who should get the AoO and opportunity to cleave into the side that didn't take the AoO? The houserule definitely helps this situation as either side can take the AoO safely because they don't get penalized for their opponent taking it first and attacking them with the cleave and don't lose the AoO for taking it because cleave restores it.
Someone
12-03-07, 02:43 PM The mentioned houserule is a good one, alternatives I might propose are:

-Limit great cleave to only granting a number of extra cleaves equal to one's Str bonus.

-Limit cleave and great cleave to "when making an attack or full attack action", like power attack or expertise.
weasel0
12-03-07, 05:23 PM Or if you want the RAW even more confusing look at a three way fight. If one side provokes an AoO from each of the other two and will die from either attack it who should get the AoO and opportunity to cleave into the side that didn't take the AoO?

Whoever has A) the higher Init B) has the higher Dex C) rolls a better reflex save.

If is was me DMing such a situation, I'd go with B.
Wih
12-03-07, 07:28 PM If you're throwing monsters that can all be one-shotted by the character in question, then it should be expected. It's just a matter of when the character in question rolls a 1.
The only time this works is when you're letting the player do it. It needs to be:
A: A group of creatures
B: Low AC
C: Low HP
If you're throwing large groups of useless creatures at the party, expect it to happen. Just be thankful the character in question doesn't have Sweeping Strike and Improved Trip as well.
mvincent
12-03-07, 07:39 PM If you're throwing monsters that can all be one-shotted by the character in question, then it should be expected.- Spiked chain: 25 gp
- Potion of enlarge: 50 gp
- Cleaving everyone in a 50 foot wide circle: priceless
Cuindless
12-03-07, 07:47 PM - Spiked chain: 25 gp
- Potion of enlarge: 50 gp
- Cleaving everyone in a 50 foot wide circle: priceless

I threw a BBEG against my PCs using something similar: a Rogue/Assassin combo using a potion of enlarge, greater invisibility and whirlwind attack. 12d6 damage (2d6 weapon, 2d6 unholy, 8d6 sneak attack) to everyone within 20' is sick...
Duvanok
12-04-07, 02:06 AM My personal rule (house rule I guess) on AoO is that it is a quick and immediate attack that takes place within a fraction of a second because the character saw some brief opening or stupid error on the part of his foe. So, an AoO is just a quick, simple smack with whatever weapon happens to be in hand. Any feat or ability that requires an extra die roll is not allowed with AoOs. For example, a "monster" would not be able to use its improved grapple ability because it requires an extra die roll (grapple check). A PC would not be able to use cleave after an AoO because it requires an extra die roll (another attack).

The obvious exception to the rule is, of course, confirming criticals. We've played with this rule for a good six years now and it seems to make a lot of sense in our game and fits nicely into the game mechanics.
Wih
12-04-07, 09:35 PM My personal rule (house rule I guess) on AoO is that it is a quick and immediate attack that takes place within a fraction of a second because the character saw some brief opening or stupid error on the part of his foe. So, an AoO is just a quick, simple smack with whatever weapon happens to be in hand. Any feat or ability that requires an extra die roll is not allowed with AoOs. For example, a "monster" would not be able to use its improved grapple ability because it requires an extra die roll (grapple check). A PC would not be able to use cleave after an AoO because it requires an extra die roll (another attack).

The obvious exception to the rule is, of course, confirming criticals. We've played with this rule for a good six years now and it seems to make a lot of sense in our game and fits nicely into the game mechanics.

Congratulations, you just made Combat Reflexes useless. Can't make multiple rolls? I guess there's not enough time to make more than one AoO in a round anymore, or else you could make that second attack in the time you would have had to make your second AoO of the round.
Seriously though, think about this for a second. Any action that provokes an AoO is at least a move action (leaving a threatened square, standing directly from prone to standing) - most are standard actions (attacking with a ranged weapon, casting a standard spell etc). That gives you more or less the same amount of time to attack the person who's provoking the AoO as a standard attack would give you.
A_Ninja_Errant
12-04-07, 09:56 PM I think your problem is more the War Hulk Prc than it is great cleave....I've made some really sick builds with that over in Char-ops. It could be a lot worse with that one, trust me.
Oh and limiting attacks of opportunity by strength is definitely not gonna help much. Just wait 'til his standard attack is a whirlwind attack. By RAW that would mean he doesn't even need great cleave. If someone provokes, everyone dies, one attack roll. On the other hand, that will mean he wasted two feats on the cleave tree.
There's no real need to nerf cleave or combat reflexes specifically I think, just the War Hulk. If it's really that much of an imbalance issue to you anyway. If you're allowing that Prc (and by extension I would guess most splat books?) I would think everyone would be pretty similarly powerful.
weasel0
12-04-07, 11:46 PM haahaa, someone got bored at home i see. >.> aninjaerrant
A_Ninja_Errant
12-04-07, 11:58 PM heh, got me.
Loren Pechtel
12-06-07, 05:38 PM Yes, by RAW you may be able to (great) cleave off of an AoO into any available target.

While I have nothing against cleave granting an extra attack when the situation calls for it I (and others) have a terrible problem with the idea that you could drop a target with an AoO and then cleave into another target that you couldn't otherwise have attacked. A houserule is that Cleave "gives back" the attack used to trigger it (less any expendables like True Strike) thus if an AoO allow a cleave opportunity the character instead regains the use of that AoO. While this may step on Combat Reflexes just a little it solves a lot of questions that involve cleave opportunities outside of a character normal attack phase.

That's how I see it, also. Rather than modelling it as getting another attack it makes much more sense if you model it as the attack isn't used up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pmurray@bigpond.com 12-02-07, 09:27 PM	Can you really great cleave off AOOs? It's driving me nuts - the half ogre war hulk has a reach of 10' and great cleave. The moment anyone moves its fun times. If only there were limits - eg: is there a rule that when you cleave, the next target must be standing next to (or within X ft of) the first?
Salla 12-02-07, 09:42 PM	Yes, you can cleave off of AoOs, and there is no limit regarding distance, but there is, of course, the limit that after you only get the cleave after dropping a target to 0 HP or lower. If you're throwing foes against this guy so weak that he can one-punch them, and they're just swarming him stupidly, they deserve what they get. :)
StevenO 12-02-07, 11:01 PM	Yes, by RAW you may be able to (great) cleave off of an AoO into any available target. While I have nothing against cleave granting an extra attack when the situation calls for it I (and others) have a terrible problem with the idea that you could drop a target with an AoO and then cleave into another target that you couldn't otherwise have attacked. A houserule is that Cleave "gives back" the attack used to trigger it (less any expendables like True Strike) thus if an AoO allow a cleave opportunity the character instead regains the use of that AoO. While this may step on Combat Reflexes just a little it solves a lot of questions that involve cleave opportunities outside of a character normal attack phase.
mvincent 12-03-07, 12:22 PM	A houserule is that Cleave "gives back" the attack used to trigger it (less any expendables like True Strike) thus if an AoO allow a cleave opportunity the character instead regains the use of that AoO.Excellent solution. In practice, I figure such mooks are designed die quickly anyway, so great cleave is the fighter's version of a fireball. But it can be particularly vexing to a BBEG if he is surrounded by such thoughtless mooks.
StevenO 12-03-07, 02:26 PM	Excellent solution. In practice, I figure such mooks are designed die quickly anyway, so great cleave is the fighter's version of a fireball. But it can be particularly vexing to a BBEG if he is surrounded by such thoughtless mooks. Or if you want the RAW even more confusing look at a three way fight. If one side provokes an AoO from each of the other two and will die from either attack it who should get the AoO and opportunity to cleave into the side that didn't take the AoO? The houserule definitely helps this situation as either side can take the AoO safely because they don't get penalized for their opponent taking it first and attacking them with the cleave and don't lose the AoO for taking it because cleave restores it.
Someone 12-03-07, 02:43 PM	The mentioned houserule is a good one, alternatives I might propose are: -Limit great cleave to only granting a number of extra cleaves equal to one's Str bonus. -Limit cleave and great cleave to "when making an attack or full attack action", like power attack or expertise.
weasel0 12-03-07, 05:23 PM	Or if you want the RAW even more confusing look at a three way fight. If one side provokes an AoO from each of the other two and will die from either attack it who should get the AoO and opportunity to cleave into the side that didn't take the AoO? Whoever has A) the higher Init B) has the higher Dex C) rolls a better reflex save. If is was me DMing such a situation, I'd go with B.
Wih 12-03-07, 07:28 PM	If you're throwing monsters that can all be one-shotted by the character in question, then it should be expected. It's just a matter of when the character in question rolls a 1. The only time this works is when you're letting the player do it. It needs to be: A: A group of creatures B: Low AC C: Low HP If you're throwing large groups of useless creatures at the party, expect it to happen. Just be thankful the character in question doesn't have Sweeping Strike and Improved Trip as well.
mvincent 12-03-07, 07:39 PM	If you're throwing monsters that can all be one-shotted by the character in question, then it should be expected.- Spiked chain: 25 gp - Potion of enlarge: 50 gp - Cleaving everyone in a 50 foot wide circle: priceless
Cuindless 12-03-07, 07:47 PM	- Spiked chain: 25 gp - Potion of enlarge: 50 gp - Cleaving everyone in a 50 foot wide circle: priceless I threw a BBEG against my PCs using something similar: a Rogue/Assassin combo using a potion of enlarge, greater invisibility and whirlwind attack. 12d6 damage (2d6 weapon, 2d6 unholy, 8d6 sneak attack) to everyone within 20' is sick...
Duvanok 12-04-07, 02:06 AM	My personal rule (house rule I guess) on AoO is that it is a quick and immediate attack that takes place within a fraction of a second because the character saw some brief opening or stupid error on the part of his foe. So, an AoO is just a quick, simple smack with whatever weapon happens to be in hand. Any feat or ability that requires an extra die roll is not allowed with AoOs. For example, a "monster" would not be able to use its improved grapple ability because it requires an extra die roll (grapple check). A PC would not be able to use cleave after an AoO because it requires an extra die roll (another attack). The obvious exception to the rule is, of course, confirming criticals. We've played with this rule for a good six years now and it seems to make a lot of sense in our game and fits nicely into the game mechanics.
Wih 12-04-07, 09:35 PM	My personal rule (house rule I guess) on AoO is that it is a quick and immediate attack that takes place within a fraction of a second because the character saw some brief opening or stupid error on the part of his foe. So, an AoO is just a quick, simple smack with whatever weapon happens to be in hand. Any feat or ability that requires an extra die roll is not allowed with AoOs. For example, a "monster" would not be able to use its improved grapple ability because it requires an extra die roll (grapple check). A PC would not be able to use cleave after an AoO because it requires an extra die roll (another attack). The obvious exception to the rule is, of course, confirming criticals. We've played with this rule for a good six years now and it seems to make a lot of sense in our game and fits nicely into the game mechanics. Congratulations, you just made Combat Reflexes useless. Can't make multiple rolls? I guess there's not enough time to make more than one AoO in a round anymore, or else you could make that second attack in the time you would have had to make your second AoO of the round. Seriously though, think about this for a second. Any action that provokes an AoO is at least a move action (leaving a threatened square, standing directly from prone to standing) - most are standard actions (attacking with a ranged weapon, casting a standard spell etc). That gives you more or less the same amount of time to attack the person who's provoking the AoO as a standard attack would give you.
A_Ninja_Errant 12-04-07, 09:56 PM	I think your problem is more the War Hulk Prc than it is great cleave....I've made some really sick builds with that over in Char-ops. It could be a lot worse with that one, trust me. Oh and limiting attacks of opportunity by strength is definitely not gonna help much. Just wait 'til his standard attack is a whirlwind attack. By RAW that would mean he doesn't even need great cleave. If someone provokes, everyone dies, one attack roll. On the other hand, that will mean he wasted two feats on the cleave tree. There's no real need to nerf cleave or combat reflexes specifically I think, just the War Hulk. If it's really that much of an imbalance issue to you anyway. If you're allowing that Prc (and by extension I would guess most splat books?) I would think everyone would be pretty similarly powerful.
weasel0 12-04-07, 11:46 PM	haahaa, someone got bored at home i see. >.> aninjaerrant
A_Ninja_Errant 12-04-07, 11:58 PM	heh, got me.
Loren Pechtel 12-06-07, 05:38 PM	Yes, by RAW you may be able to (great) cleave off of an AoO into any available target. While I have nothing against cleave granting an extra attack when the situation calls for it I (and others) have a terrible problem with the idea that you could drop a target with an AoO and then cleave into another target that you couldn't otherwise have attacked. A houserule is that Cleave "gives back" the attack used to trigger it (less any expendables like True Strike) thus if an AoO allow a cleave opportunity the character instead regains the use of that AoO. While this may step on Combat Reflexes just a little it solves a lot of questions that involve cleave opportunities outside of a character normal attack phase. That's how I see it, also. Rather than modelling it as getting another attack it makes much more sense if you model it as the attack isn't used up.