Halfling bonus - throwing a rapier? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Halfling bonus - throwing a rapier? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Volsung100
06-04-07, 10:00 PM Alright, this is the situation. Two of my players were scouting around in the woods, one was a halfling and the other was a PC almost completely irrelevant to this story. At one point they had a random encounter - a dire badger. It killed "the other" PC, and the halfling fled up a tree. After the badger was finished mauling its victom, it decided to leave, as its rage was over and it was heavily wounded.

The halfling wished to avenge his friend, but knew he was unable to reach the badger in time by climbing down the tree and chasing it. Lacking ranged weapons, he threw his rapier as a last chance. It missed by 1 point. The badger got away.

I'm pretty open with stats and such with my group, as we're pretty "rollplay" heavy (and enjoy it, thank you very much). I don't mind showing the stats and such after a battle - especially one resulting in character death.

Anyways, the halfling player brought this to my attention today, straight from the phb.
"+1 racial attack bonus on attack rolls with a thrown weapon and slings: Throwing and slinging stones is a universal sport among halflings, and they develop especially good aim."

The quote is straight from the PHB. To myself and the player, the wording implies that any weapon thrown by a halfling gets that +1 bonus, regardless if the weapon is designed to be thrown or not. If thats so, I suppose the poor badger would have died. It doesn't make sense to me, but I'm curious on other DMs' take on this rule. I'm in no rush, as in my game its already been decided what happened (we seem to have the whole DM's ruling is final down pat). We are curious though, just for future reference. So what do you guys think?
weasel0
06-04-07, 10:27 PM Daggers, hand axes, javelins, shirukens. These are thrown weapons. A rapier is a melee weapon. While true he did throw it, he improvised it as thrown(-4 improvised weapon). This only makes it a weapon he threw. Though kudos for creative thinking 101.

Remind them how parties shouldn't(as a general rule) ever split into smaller groups as they figure out the new(or how to ressurect) a/this character.
Mystic Lemur
06-04-07, 11:40 PM Right. Even if you give him the +1 for throwing it (which is debatable) you would still have to take away 4 for the improvised part.

Can't wait to hear his response to "Well, I did some investigating and you really missed it by 3 instead of 1. That's with the +1 for being a halfling.":banghead:
Volsung100
06-04-07, 11:53 PM Thanks for the quick replies guys. We already knew about the -4 penalty, the guy was just trying to weasel out another point on his attack roll. As for splitting up - they were warned repeatedly. Then again, both characters seemed to be using wisdom as a dump stat, so I guess they could claim thats why they split...

Can't wait to hear his response to "Well, I did some investigating and you really missed it by 3 instead of 1. That's with the +1 for being a halfling."

Amusingly enough, something similar already happened, but not with the -4 penalty. It seems I forgot to take into account he was throwing the rapier 20ft, invoking yet another -1 or -2 penalty (can't remember which off the top of my head). :D

Thanks again. :P
Andrew
06-05-07, 08:25 AM I'd allow the +1. It seems more likely in some settings that halflings would be known for throwing pots, pans, vegetables, or another variety of improvised objects than they would be know for being deadeye shots with shuriken. I thought about the "The following are thrown weapons..." argument, but I feel it's more appropriate to define something as a thrown weapon if it's using the rules for thrown weapons.

In any case, play what happened as you called it at the time (table ruling stands) but tell the players that upon further review it will work like X in the future. I'd say allow the +1, but also make sure that the -4 and -2 per range increment are enforced (which provide penalties such that the outcome from the table ruling would still apply).
PenderGrass
06-05-07, 01:52 PM Remind them how parties shouldn't(as a general rule) ever split into smaller groups....
Isn't it impossible for a halfling not to be in a smaller group?

:P

:dragon:
****
weasel0
06-06-07, 02:22 AM Heehee. Such an observation is below me.

Anyone watch those "Celebrity Jeopardy" sketchs on SNL? ^^
Kouk
06-06-07, 03:11 AM I would allow it, under the premise that while not designed as a throwing weapon originally it is still an improvised throwing weapon at least.

Thrown Weapons

Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

That part seems most important. The PHB doesn't really spell out what weapons halflings are good at besides as flavor, so I take it to mean they are good at throwing "things" as weapons. A rapier is a weapon, that is being thrown to do damage, so it is a throwing weapon (though not designed for that purpose).
PenderGrass
06-06-07, 03:50 AM I would err on the side of the halfling for this one - giving them +1 with any thrown weapon (or anything thrown as a weapon).

As others have stated, make sure to add a -4 penalty to any improvised thrown weapon.

...and, BTW, Sean Connery ruled on SNL Celebrity Jeopardy.

:dragon:
****
nlentz88
06-08-07, 01:38 PM I would allow it, under the premise that while not designed as a throwing weapon originally it is still an improvised throwing weapon at least.

Agreed. While the rapier is not designed to be thrown in combat, it doesn't mean that someone inherently good at throwing weapons would lose such an ability when throwing it. Halflings are good at throwing weapons, even weapons not designed to be thrown.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Volsung100 06-04-07, 10:00 PM	Alright, this is the situation. Two of my players were scouting around in the woods, one was a halfling and the other was a PC almost completely irrelevant to this story. At one point they had a random encounter - a dire badger. It killed "the other" PC, and the halfling fled up a tree. After the badger was finished mauling its victom, it decided to leave, as its rage was over and it was heavily wounded. The halfling wished to avenge his friend, but knew he was unable to reach the badger in time by climbing down the tree and chasing it. Lacking ranged weapons, he threw his rapier as a last chance. It missed by 1 point. The badger got away. I'm pretty open with stats and such with my group, as we're pretty "rollplay" heavy (and enjoy it, thank you very much). I don't mind showing the stats and such after a battle - especially one resulting in character death. Anyways, the halfling player brought this to my attention today, straight from the phb. "+1 racial attack bonus on attack rolls with a thrown weapon and slings: Throwing and slinging stones is a universal sport among halflings, and they develop especially good aim." The quote is straight from the PHB. To myself and the player, the wording implies that any weapon thrown by a halfling gets that +1 bonus, regardless if the weapon is designed to be thrown or not. If thats so, I suppose the poor badger would have died. It doesn't make sense to me, but I'm curious on other DMs' take on this rule. I'm in no rush, as in my game its already been decided what happened (we seem to have the whole DM's ruling is final down pat). We are curious though, just for future reference. So what do you guys think?
weasel0 06-04-07, 10:27 PM	Daggers, hand axes, javelins, shirukens. These are thrown weapons. A rapier is a melee weapon. While true he did throw it, he improvised it as thrown(-4 improvised weapon). This only makes it a weapon he threw. Though kudos for creative thinking 101. Remind them how parties shouldn't(as a general rule) ever split into smaller groups as they figure out the new(or how to ressurect) a/this character.
Mystic Lemur 06-04-07, 11:40 PM	Right. Even if you give him the +1 for throwing it (which is debatable) you would still have to take away 4 for the improvised part. Can't wait to hear his response to "Well, I did some investigating and you really missed it by 3 instead of 1. That's with the +1 for being a halfling.":banghead:
Volsung100 06-04-07, 11:53 PM	Thanks for the quick replies guys. We already knew about the -4 penalty, the guy was just trying to weasel out another point on his attack roll. As for splitting up - they were warned repeatedly. Then again, both characters seemed to be using wisdom as a dump stat, so I guess they could claim thats why they split... Can't wait to hear his response to "Well, I did some investigating and you really missed it by 3 instead of 1. That's with the +1 for being a halfling." Amusingly enough, something similar already happened, but not with the -4 penalty. It seems I forgot to take into account he was throwing the rapier 20ft, invoking yet another -1 or -2 penalty (can't remember which off the top of my head). :D Thanks again. :P
Andrew 06-05-07, 08:25 AM	I'd allow the +1. It seems more likely in some settings that halflings would be known for throwing pots, pans, vegetables, or another variety of improvised objects than they would be know for being deadeye shots with shuriken. I thought about the "The following are thrown weapons..." argument, but I feel it's more appropriate to define something as a thrown weapon if it's using the rules for thrown weapons. In any case, play what happened as you called it at the time (table ruling stands) but tell the players that upon further review it will work like X in the future. I'd say allow the +1, but also make sure that the -4 and -2 per range increment are enforced (which provide penalties such that the outcome from the table ruling would still apply).
PenderGrass 06-05-07, 01:52 PM	Remind them how parties shouldn't(as a general rule) ever split into smaller groups.... Isn't it impossible for a halfling not to be in a smaller group? :P :dragon: ****
weasel0 06-06-07, 02:22 AM	Heehee. Such an observation is below me. Anyone watch those "Celebrity Jeopardy" sketchs on SNL? ^^
Kouk 06-06-07, 03:11 AM	I would allow it, under the premise that while not designed as a throwing weapon originally it is still an improvised throwing weapon at least. Thrown Weapons Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. That part seems most important. The PHB doesn't really spell out what weapons halflings are good at besides as flavor, so I take it to mean they are good at throwing "things" as weapons. A rapier is a weapon, that is being thrown to do damage, so it is a throwing weapon (though not designed for that purpose).
PenderGrass 06-06-07, 03:50 AM	I would err on the side of the halfling for this one - giving them +1 with any thrown weapon (or anything thrown as a weapon). As others have stated, make sure to add a -4 penalty to any improvised thrown weapon. ...and, BTW, Sean Connery ruled on SNL Celebrity Jeopardy. :dragon: ****
nlentz88 06-08-07, 01:38 PM	I would allow it, under the premise that while not designed as a throwing weapon originally it is still an improvised throwing weapon at least. Agreed. While the rapier is not designed to be thrown in combat, it doesn't mean that someone inherently good at throwing weapons would lose such an ability when throwing it. Halflings are good at throwing weapons, even weapons not designed to be thrown.