Help with boat-to-boat melee combat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with boat-to-boat melee combat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sleepyman
08-11-07, 08:58 AM I've been prepping an encounter for tomorrow's game but struggling with how to handle it. I might just throw it out if the combat mechanics don't work well. We generally play straight rules, but I might consider an adjustment specific to this encounter.

The characters will likely be using a folding boat, listed as 24 feet long and 8 feet wide. Low-level soldiers in two ships of the similar size will be attacking them.

The characters will have four NPC soldiers with them. If I generously say that their deck is 5 squares long and 2 squares wide, then there would only be two open squares on their boat. The enemies would have two soldiers in each square of their boats.

If it works out that everything is handled by ranged combat, there won't be any problem. I forsee, however, one or more of the PC fighter-types trying to jump onto an enemy ship. Some enemy soldiers might try to jump onto their boat.

My best solution is to follow the straight grappling rules, though entering a square that has two opponents is something I've never considered. Also, I figure that adjacent soldiers who are sharing a square with an ally could not make a melee attack into the grapple because you're not allowed to share squares normally.

How would you handle a fight on a boat deck that's so crowded? Or would it be better to just have a few high level enemy soldiers?
Sleepyman
Merestil Haye
08-11-07, 10:58 AM I've been prepping an encounter for tomorrow's game but struggling with how to handle it. I might just throw it out if the combat mechanics don't work well. We generally play straight rules, but I might consider an adjustment specific to this encounter.Some general principles.

1. You are looking for a mechanic that allows one creature to enter the space of another.
2. It is not permitted for a creature to end his movement in a square occupied by another creature unless there is a significant size difference (three or more size categories) between them, or the creature already there is prone or unconscious.
3. Standing long jump checks have a DC equal to twice the distance to be jumped.

The characters will likely be using a folding boat, listed as 24 feet long and 8 feet wide. Low-level soldiers in two ships of the similar size will be attacking them.

The characters will have four NPC soldiers with them. If I generously say that their deck is 5 squares long and 2 squares wide, then there would only be two open squares on their boat. The enemies would have two soldiers in each square of their boats.The sizing seems fair. The attackers are badly hampered though, by being forced to crowd together.

If it works out that everything is handled by ranged combat, there won't be any problem. I forsee, however, one or more of the PC fighter-types trying to jump onto an enemy ship. Some enemy soldiers might try to jump onto their boat.

My best solution is to follow the straight grappling rules, though entering a square that has two opponents is something I've never considered. Also, I figure that adjacent soldiers who are sharing a square with an ally could not make a melee attack into the grapple because you're not allowed to share squares normally.

How would you handle a fight on a boat deck that's so crowded?Grappling is not the appropriate mechanic. The two creatures only occupy the same square after the grapple is already established. What you need is to review Bull Rush.

A soldier attempting to jump into an empty square on the PCs boat needs to make a Jump check. The DC of that check is the distance to jump * 2. This is somewhat risky because any PC on that side flanking the empty square gets an AoO, and more distant opponents may get AoOs if they have reach weapons.

Attempting to jump into an occupied square is a Bull Rush. Defenders may get AoOs, then make the check. If the attacker wins, the defender is knocked back one square. If the defender wins, the attacker is knocked back one square. He is now swimming.

If the defender is knocked back into an occupied square he is knocked prone.

Don't allow the attacker to follow through.

If the ships occupy adjacent squares, someone may try to make a 5' step. I'd advise disallowing this on the grounds that the two ships are continually in motion wrt each other.

Or would it be better to just have a few high level enemy soldiers?
SleepymanDefinitely better to at least halve the attacker's numbers and raise the levels.

It's not as if the PCs are totally defenceless - one fireball in the right place will wipe out the soldiers on one ship.

Hope that helps.
Kouk
08-11-07, 11:53 AM Grappling hooks to latch on to the enemy boat, then boarding planks to attack them without having to Jump.
sleepyman
08-11-07, 02:28 PM Thanks for the suggestions! Bull rush, grappling hooks and planks should make for an interesting fight.

The sizing seems fair. The attackers are badly hampered though, by being forced to crowd together.

But what's the penalty? This is a part of the system that seems really weak. There are all kinds of situations besides being on a boat that could force medium-sized creatures into the same square. Unless someone knows what the penalty is, I'm thinking "badly-hampered" could be handled in the same way that large creatures squeeze: -4 to hit and -4 AC.

It's not as if the PCs are totally defenseless - one fireball in the right place will wipe out the soldiers on one ship.

Hope that helps.

Yes. Bull Rush will work perfectly. As for a fireball, I am experiencing the rare joy of DMing for a party with no arcane spell casting ability. :)
Eater_Of_Souls
08-11-07, 02:52 PM Well farankly enter from boat to boat is rather simple.

First both boat throw grappling hooks (possibility someone might have legs strapped on the hooks ...) which then pull both boats together, then boarding planks are set which are used to help to board the other ship.
Once you're at the enemy deck boards are withdrawn and melee begins.
So basicly treat it as any melee in tight quarters.

If you don't board and secure the enemy ship call for a tumble/balance roll, those who fail the check fall down and are in risk of getting crushed between moving ships.
So they need a swim check to dive out of the way in time.
sleepyman
08-11-07, 03:03 PM So basicly treat it as any melee in tight quarters.

I'm not sure what you mean by "melee in tight quarters". Is that defined somewhere? Bull rush is apparently the only way to get on the boat if every nearby square is full. The grappling hooks and planks only remove the need for jump checks.
Merestil Haye
08-11-07, 06:04 PM But what's the penalty? This is a part of the system that seems really weak. There are all kinds of situations besides being on a boat that could force medium-sized creatures into the same square. Unless someone knows what the penalty is, I'm thinking "badly-hampered" could be handled in the same way that large creatures squeeze: -4 to hit and -4 AC.I didn't look the penalties for squeezing up but that's what I was thinking was appropriate.

Yes. Bull Rush will work perfectly. As for a fireball, I am experiencing the rare joy of DMing for a party with no arcane spell casting ability. :)Poor party.
JustinA
08-12-07, 01:03 PM I didn't look the penalties for squeezing up but that's what I was thinking was appropriate.

I agree. I've already house-ruled that:

(1) Up to two friendly characters can share the same space, but both characters suffer the penalties for squeezing into a space that is at least half as wide as your space.

(2) Up to four friendly characters can share the same space, but each character must make a successful Tumble check (DC 15) or get tangled up and fail to take any action that round. A failed check also imposes a cumulative -2 penalty to all other characters sharing the square for 1 round. Even if the Tumble check is successful, the character still suffers the penalties for squeezing through a space less than half the width of their space.

These rules work fairly well for those instances where such rules are necessary (like the boat example we're talking about here).

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net
Phrennzy
08-14-07, 10:46 AM If all three boats are the same size - roughly 25' x 10' - that's pretty small.

Its basically 3 rowboats in combat, not three ships.

The enemies would be better served by having some of their guys row and the rest open fire with range.

No one would jump onto a small craft that is already jam packed with people. It would be suicide.

The other option is to attack the folding boat directly - using magic. If the enemies are out to kill the PCs, they might just toss a few flasks of burning oil at the boat and call it a day.

You wouldn't see me throwing a grappling hook and trying to jump into a rowboat filled with 8 armed & angry men.
primemover003
08-14-07, 07:30 PM Two words.... reach weapons.

And just an FYI for bull rush... the defender never ends up prone when engaged in a bull rush. Only the character who initiates a bull rush has a chance to become prone (and it only happens rarely). If you want someone ending up prone you use Trip.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sleepyman 08-11-07, 08:58 AM	I've been prepping an encounter for tomorrow's game but struggling with how to handle it. I might just throw it out if the combat mechanics don't work well. We generally play straight rules, but I might consider an adjustment specific to this encounter. The characters will likely be using a folding boat, listed as 24 feet long and 8 feet wide. Low-level soldiers in two ships of the similar size will be attacking them. The characters will have four NPC soldiers with them. If I generously say that their deck is 5 squares long and 2 squares wide, then there would only be two open squares on their boat. The enemies would have two soldiers in each square of their boats. If it works out that everything is handled by ranged combat, there won't be any problem. I forsee, however, one or more of the PC fighter-types trying to jump onto an enemy ship. Some enemy soldiers might try to jump onto their boat. My best solution is to follow the straight grappling rules, though entering a square that has two opponents is something I've never considered. Also, I figure that adjacent soldiers who are sharing a square with an ally could not make a melee attack into the grapple because you're not allowed to share squares normally. How would you handle a fight on a boat deck that's so crowded? Or would it be better to just have a few high level enemy soldiers? Sleepyman
Merestil Haye 08-11-07, 10:58 AM	I've been prepping an encounter for tomorrow's game but struggling with how to handle it. I might just throw it out if the combat mechanics don't work well. We generally play straight rules, but I might consider an adjustment specific to this encounter.Some general principles. 1. You are looking for a mechanic that allows one creature to enter the space of another. 2. It is not permitted for a creature to end his movement in a square occupied by another creature unless there is a significant size difference (three or more size categories) between them, or the creature already there is prone or unconscious. 3. Standing long jump checks have a DC equal to twice the distance to be jumped. The characters will likely be using a folding boat, listed as 24 feet long and 8 feet wide. Low-level soldiers in two ships of the similar size will be attacking them. The characters will have four NPC soldiers with them. If I generously say that their deck is 5 squares long and 2 squares wide, then there would only be two open squares on their boat. The enemies would have two soldiers in each square of their boats.The sizing seems fair. The attackers are badly hampered though, by being forced to crowd together. If it works out that everything is handled by ranged combat, there won't be any problem. I forsee, however, one or more of the PC fighter-types trying to jump onto an enemy ship. Some enemy soldiers might try to jump onto their boat. My best solution is to follow the straight grappling rules, though entering a square that has two opponents is something I've never considered. Also, I figure that adjacent soldiers who are sharing a square with an ally could not make a melee attack into the grapple because you're not allowed to share squares normally. How would you handle a fight on a boat deck that's so crowded?Grappling is not the appropriate mechanic. The two creatures only occupy the same square after the grapple is already established. What you need is to review Bull Rush. A soldier attempting to jump into an empty square on the PCs boat needs to make a Jump check. The DC of that check is the distance to jump * 2. This is somewhat risky because any PC on that side flanking the empty square gets an AoO, and more distant opponents may get AoOs if they have reach weapons. Attempting to jump into an occupied square is a Bull Rush. Defenders may get AoOs, then make the check. If the attacker wins, the defender is knocked back one square. If the defender wins, the attacker is knocked back one square. He is now swimming. If the defender is knocked back into an occupied square he is knocked prone. Don't allow the attacker to follow through. If the ships occupy adjacent squares, someone may try to make a 5' step. I'd advise disallowing this on the grounds that the two ships are continually in motion wrt each other. Or would it be better to just have a few high level enemy soldiers? SleepymanDefinitely better to at least halve the attacker's numbers and raise the levels. It's not as if the PCs are totally defenceless - one fireball in the right place will wipe out the soldiers on one ship. Hope that helps.
Kouk 08-11-07, 11:53 AM	Grappling hooks to latch on to the enemy boat, then boarding planks to attack them without having to Jump.
sleepyman 08-11-07, 02:28 PM	Thanks for the suggestions! Bull rush, grappling hooks and planks should make for an interesting fight. The sizing seems fair. The attackers are badly hampered though, by being forced to crowd together. But what's the penalty? This is a part of the system that seems really weak. There are all kinds of situations besides being on a boat that could force medium-sized creatures into the same square. Unless someone knows what the penalty is, I'm thinking "badly-hampered" could be handled in the same way that large creatures squeeze: -4 to hit and -4 AC. It's not as if the PCs are totally defenseless - one fireball in the right place will wipe out the soldiers on one ship. Hope that helps. Yes. Bull Rush will work perfectly. As for a fireball, I am experiencing the rare joy of DMing for a party with no arcane spell casting ability. :)
Eater_Of_Souls 08-11-07, 02:52 PM	Well farankly enter from boat to boat is rather simple. First both boat throw grappling hooks (possibility someone might have legs strapped on the hooks ...) which then pull both boats together, then boarding planks are set which are used to help to board the other ship. Once you're at the enemy deck boards are withdrawn and melee begins. So basicly treat it as any melee in tight quarters. If you don't board and secure the enemy ship call for a tumble/balance roll, those who fail the check fall down and are in risk of getting crushed between moving ships. So they need a swim check to dive out of the way in time.
sleepyman 08-11-07, 03:03 PM	So basicly treat it as any melee in tight quarters. I'm not sure what you mean by "melee in tight quarters". Is that defined somewhere? Bull rush is apparently the only way to get on the boat if every nearby square is full. The grappling hooks and planks only remove the need for jump checks.
Merestil Haye 08-11-07, 06:04 PM	But what's the penalty? This is a part of the system that seems really weak. There are all kinds of situations besides being on a boat that could force medium-sized creatures into the same square. Unless someone knows what the penalty is, I'm thinking "badly-hampered" could be handled in the same way that large creatures squeeze: -4 to hit and -4 AC.I didn't look the penalties for squeezing up but that's what I was thinking was appropriate. Yes. Bull Rush will work perfectly. As for a fireball, I am experiencing the rare joy of DMing for a party with no arcane spell casting ability. :)Poor party.
JustinA 08-12-07, 01:03 PM	I didn't look the penalties for squeezing up but that's what I was thinking was appropriate. I agree. I've already house-ruled that: (1) Up to two friendly characters can share the same space, but both characters suffer the penalties for squeezing into a space that is at least half as wide as your space. (2) Up to four friendly characters can share the same space, but each character must make a successful Tumble check (DC 15) or get tangled up and fail to take any action that round. A failed check also imposes a cumulative -2 penalty to all other characters sharing the square for 1 round. Even if the Tumble check is successful, the character still suffers the penalties for squeezing through a space less than half the width of their space. These rules work fairly well for those instances where such rules are necessary (like the boat example we're talking about here). Justin Alexander http://www.thealexandrian.net
Phrennzy 08-14-07, 10:46 AM	If all three boats are the same size - roughly 25' x 10' - that's pretty small. Its basically 3 rowboats in combat, not three ships. The enemies would be better served by having some of their guys row and the rest open fire with range. No one would jump onto a small craft that is already jam packed with people. It would be suicide. The other option is to attack the folding boat directly - using magic. If the enemies are out to kill the PCs, they might just toss a few flasks of burning oil at the boat and call it a day. You wouldn't see me throwing a grappling hook and trying to jump into a rowboat filled with 8 armed & angry men.
primemover003 08-14-07, 07:30 PM	Two words.... reach weapons. And just an FYI for bull rush... the defender never ends up prone when engaged in a bull rush. Only the character who initiates a bull rush has a chance to become prone (and it only happens rarely). If you want someone ending up prone you use Trip.