Help with Energy Drain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with Energy Drain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
arrisnyte
11-16-07, 10:57 PM I am a player in a game of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. My friend is the DM, and we are using this pre-gen game to play test a home made prestige class, but we are coming into a problem:

The Prestige class offers the character an ability that, for a limited time (Akin to a Barbarian's rage) he gains some (not all) of the benefits accorded to undead, along with some of their drawbacks (He is not subject to ability drain/damage, but is subject to crits; he does not die when he reaches 0 [he must reach -10] but neither cure nor inflict spells heal damage in this state).

Well, one of the lines is this:

"The (Prestige Class Name withheld for personal ownership) is immune to any effect that requires a fortitude save, unless that effect also works on objects."

Here is the question: Energy drain immediately applies negative levels, and after 24 hours you make a fortitude save to get them back. Does this class:

a) Not take negative level damage from a vampire slam attack, because the effect WILL require a save later?

b.) Take the negative levels, but automatically pass the fort save in 24 hours (subnote, would he only pass if he was in this altered state, like Clerics cast Bear's Endurance on fighter's right before they make the save?)

or c.) He takes the drain and makes the save as normal?

I cannot find any way through the books to deliberate this, as all creatures with this immunity to effects line are creatures that are already not subject to level drain anyway (Constructs and Undead).

My DM and I are tweaking and adjusting the class each session for balance, so any input would help immensely.
weasel0
11-16-07, 11:59 PM I'd say to go with A. I, however, wouldn't allow a blanket immunity like this. I'd say perhaps a +4 to all Fortitude Saves.... maybe a +5.
Mayhaps:
--In this form, the character gains a +4 bonus(unnamed) to all Fortitude Saves. He gains an additional +1 to his Fort Saves for every X amount of Lvs in this PrC. (If it's a 5Lv Prc +1 at 3 and 5, if 10Lv PrC... 5, 8, and 10. And you can try and balance it out by the Fort bonus the actual levels give him as an inherent bonus for simply gaining the level.)

Or maybe, there's a 50/50 chance, he auto-passes, or is "unaffected" by something that requires a Fort save. This can be a class ability.

Maybe both +4 at 1st Lv, +1 at 3, 6, and 9, and then at 10 he gains the 50/50 as class ability.
Marcus Majarra
11-17-07, 12:15 AM Technically, the energy drain would still deal negative levels, but these go away automatically 24 hours later. Normally, a character would have to make a Fort save at that time to avoid level loss, but this effect doesn't apply to objects and the character is immune to such effects.
Merestil Haye
11-17-07, 06:55 AM I tend to agree with Marcus that the rules as they stand would result in negative levels that would be inflicted on a character in this quasi-undead state would not be inflicted. I don't like the result much though.

You don't say how long the character can remain in the quasi-undead state. If the negative levels will always outlast the quasi-undead state then I suggest you put a note in teh PrC power along the following lines :-

"The [PrCname] who is subject to an attack inflicting negative levels while in this state accumulates these levels as normal, but is not affected by them in any way. As soon as the state ends he is subject to the full effect of the negative levels, including death if he has at least as many negative levels as he has Hit Dice."

If the state normally outlasts the duration of a negative level, perhaps it lasts too long.
arrisnyte
11-17-07, 11:53 AM If the state normally outlasts the duration of a negative level, perhaps it lasts too long.

Lord, no! lol. The state is, like a barbarian's rage, dependant on an ability score mod. So barring ridiculous magical items, or custom spells to induce this state, it only lasts a few rounds.

That being the case, you would rule it like this:

{
Player (Level 7) goes into death trance state.
DM hits player with Slam attack for two negative levels. Vampire gains hitpoints.
Player feels no effects.
(ROUNDS PASS)
Player drops out of special state.
Player takes penalties to Hitpoints and checks.
(24 Hours Later) Player either makes two fortitude saves, or uses up a daily use of his state right before hand to automatically succeed on both saves.
}
?
Merestil Haye
11-17-07, 12:16 PM With the duration of the power I was just trying to cover all bases since you hadn't actually said what the duration was. I'd assumed in most of the drafting that it was some limited time based on class level and/or Cha mod.

I hadn't thought about using the ability the next day. But yes, now you point it out I'd be OK with that, since he's spending a daily use of the power.
Marcus Majarra
11-17-07, 03:18 PM IMHO, the player would feel the full effects of the negative levels unless a Fort save is allowed to avoid taking negative levels in the first place. The vampire's energy drain allows no save, and thus fully affects the character.
Axiomatic_vampire
11-19-07, 08:35 AM I feel like I'm missing something, gonna stick my neck out and ask.
Why is he, in an undead-like state, vulnerable to level drain at all?
It seems less relevant that a fortitude save will be eventually required, and more relevant that undead aren't affected, at all, by negative levels. If part of the undead traits given is the immunity to ability drain and damage, level drain really ought to be part of that.

Also, as an aside, undead ARE susceptible to ability damage to mental scores, as long as it isn't from a mind affecting source.
But not energy drain, ever.
arrisnyte
11-19-07, 11:41 AM Axiomatic_Vampire (BTW, Love that name): I really don't want to give much away. I am one of those people who is a little paranoid over the TOS line that Wizards retains ownership of anything put on the boards now. BUt think of it like this:

The class is for 90% of the time, a normal melee type. D12 hit die, 4+Int skills, etc. Instead of a barbarian's rage, which increases Strength and Con, he channels Negative Energy becoming sort of "Half-Dead" He gains some of the benefits and weaknesses of both states.

He is still to "Living" for negative energy to heal him (So it will still harm him) but he is too "Dead" for positive energy to heal him (My DM and I haven't decided if that means it harms him, or he takes half healing like Warforged).

One line of his death-like state is that "He is not subject to effects that require a fortitude save unless they also affect objects."

He is still subject to Ability damage or ability/energy drain (unless it allows a Fort save, in which case he is not subject to it.)

The problem is that, as far as I'm reading, unless he takes a feat chain from Libris Mortis, there is no Fort save to avoid getting the negative level on Tuesday; there is only a fort save on Wednesday to avoid making it permanent.

As far as my gut, and logistics is telling me, Marcus has it right: I will take the negative levels just like anyone else, but in 24 hours, as long as I use a daily use of that state, I will automatically succeed at purging the negative levels then.
Axiomatic_vampire
11-19-07, 11:58 AM Ah, I see.

Well, I'll go ahead and throw out my opinion then, for what it's worth.
If the person is existing in a state in between undeath and life, not affected by positive or negative energy, then a level drain (classic negative energy) shouldn't affect him at all. The only question is whether or not it "kicks in" when the undead-like effect ends. I would argue "nope".
Negative levels are, I admit, different then hit point damage, but not THAT different. Take a fireball, your body is injured, it has to heal later. Take a level drain, your life is sucked away, a strong body can shrug it off with time, a weak body is permanently crippled.
What I'm getting at is they have something in common. Both have an effect that happens instantaneously, no duration. That means no break enchantment, no dispel magic. It happens. It can be healed, but the bad effect is over, all you have is the leftover damage done to the body.
So then, if you had temporary immunity to the negative energy, it would run through the body and do nothing at all. By the time the body is fully human again, there's no negative energy left in it to hit it with negative levels. No lingering effects. It would be synonymous with polymorphing into something fire immune and taking a fireball. Change back, still fine.

Just the way I see it, hope it's good times either way it plays.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
arrisnyte 11-16-07, 10:57 PM	I am a player in a game of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. My friend is the DM, and we are using this pre-gen game to play test a home made prestige class, but we are coming into a problem: The Prestige class offers the character an ability that, for a limited time (Akin to a Barbarian's rage) he gains some (not all) of the benefits accorded to undead, along with some of their drawbacks (He is not subject to ability drain/damage, but is subject to crits; he does not die when he reaches 0 [he must reach -10] but neither cure nor inflict spells heal damage in this state). Well, one of the lines is this: "The (Prestige Class Name withheld for personal ownership) is immune to any effect that requires a fortitude save, unless that effect also works on objects." Here is the question: Energy drain immediately applies negative levels, and after 24 hours you make a fortitude save to get them back. Does this class: a) Not take negative level damage from a vampire slam attack, because the effect WILL require a save later? b.) Take the negative levels, but automatically pass the fort save in 24 hours (subnote, would he only pass if he was in this altered state, like Clerics cast Bear's Endurance on fighter's right before they make the save?) or c.) He takes the drain and makes the save as normal? I cannot find any way through the books to deliberate this, as all creatures with this immunity to effects line are creatures that are already not subject to level drain anyway (Constructs and Undead). My DM and I are tweaking and adjusting the class each session for balance, so any input would help immensely.
weasel0 11-16-07, 11:59 PM	I'd say to go with A. I, however, wouldn't allow a blanket immunity like this. I'd say perhaps a +4 to all Fortitude Saves.... maybe a +5. Mayhaps: --In this form, the character gains a +4 bonus(unnamed) to all Fortitude Saves. He gains an additional +1 to his Fort Saves for every X amount of Lvs in this PrC. (If it's a 5Lv Prc +1 at 3 and 5, if 10Lv PrC... 5, 8, and 10. And you can try and balance it out by the Fort bonus the actual levels give him as an inherent bonus for simply gaining the level.) Or maybe, there's a 50/50 chance, he auto-passes, or is "unaffected" by something that requires a Fort save. This can be a class ability. Maybe both +4 at 1st Lv, +1 at 3, 6, and 9, and then at 10 he gains the 50/50 as class ability.
Marcus Majarra 11-17-07, 12:15 AM	Technically, the energy drain would still deal negative levels, but these go away automatically 24 hours later. Normally, a character would have to make a Fort save at that time to avoid level loss, but this effect doesn't apply to objects and the character is immune to such effects.
Merestil Haye 11-17-07, 06:55 AM	I tend to agree with Marcus that the rules as they stand would result in negative levels that would be inflicted on a character in this quasi-undead state would not be inflicted. I don't like the result much though. You don't say how long the character can remain in the quasi-undead state. If the negative levels will always outlast the quasi-undead state then I suggest you put a note in teh PrC power along the following lines :- "The [PrCname] who is subject to an attack inflicting negative levels while in this state accumulates these levels as normal, but is not affected by them in any way. As soon as the state ends he is subject to the full effect of the negative levels, including death if he has at least as many negative levels as he has Hit Dice." If the state normally outlasts the duration of a negative level, perhaps it lasts too long.
arrisnyte 11-17-07, 11:53 AM	If the state normally outlasts the duration of a negative level, perhaps it lasts too long. Lord, no! lol. The state is, like a barbarian's rage, dependant on an ability score mod. So barring ridiculous magical items, or custom spells to induce this state, it only lasts a few rounds. That being the case, you would rule it like this: { Player (Level 7) goes into death trance state. DM hits player with Slam attack for two negative levels. Vampire gains hitpoints. Player feels no effects. (ROUNDS PASS) Player drops out of special state. Player takes penalties to Hitpoints and checks. (24 Hours Later) Player either makes two fortitude saves, or uses up a daily use of his state right before hand to automatically succeed on both saves. } ?
Merestil Haye 11-17-07, 12:16 PM	With the duration of the power I was just trying to cover all bases since you hadn't actually said what the duration was. I'd assumed in most of the drafting that it was some limited time based on class level and/or Cha mod. I hadn't thought about using the ability the next day. But yes, now you point it out I'd be OK with that, since he's spending a daily use of the power.
Marcus Majarra 11-17-07, 03:18 PM	IMHO, the player would feel the full effects of the negative levels unless a Fort save is allowed to avoid taking negative levels in the first place. The vampire's energy drain allows no save, and thus fully affects the character.
Axiomatic_vampire 11-19-07, 08:35 AM	I feel like I'm missing something, gonna stick my neck out and ask. Why is he, in an undead-like state, vulnerable to level drain at all? It seems less relevant that a fortitude save will be eventually required, and more relevant that undead aren't affected, at all, by negative levels. If part of the undead traits given is the immunity to ability drain and damage, level drain really ought to be part of that. Also, as an aside, undead ARE susceptible to ability damage to mental scores, as long as it isn't from a mind affecting source. But not energy drain, ever.
arrisnyte 11-19-07, 11:41 AM	Axiomatic_Vampire (BTW, Love that name): I really don't want to give much away. I am one of those people who is a little paranoid over the TOS line that Wizards retains ownership of anything put on the boards now. BUt think of it like this: The class is for 90% of the time, a normal melee type. D12 hit die, 4+Int skills, etc. Instead of a barbarian's rage, which increases Strength and Con, he channels Negative Energy becoming sort of "Half-Dead" He gains some of the benefits and weaknesses of both states. He is still to "Living" for negative energy to heal him (So it will still harm him) but he is too "Dead" for positive energy to heal him (My DM and I haven't decided if that means it harms him, or he takes half healing like Warforged). One line of his death-like state is that "He is not subject to effects that require a fortitude save unless they also affect objects." He is still subject to Ability damage or ability/energy drain (unless it allows a Fort save, in which case he is not subject to it.) The problem is that, as far as I'm reading, unless he takes a feat chain from Libris Mortis, there is no Fort save to avoid getting the negative level on Tuesday; there is only a fort save on Wednesday to avoid making it permanent. As far as my gut, and logistics is telling me, Marcus has it right: I will take the negative levels just like anyone else, but in 24 hours, as long as I use a daily use of that state, I will automatically succeed at purging the negative levels then.
Axiomatic_vampire 11-19-07, 11:58 AM	Ah, I see. Well, I'll go ahead and throw out my opinion then, for what it's worth. If the person is existing in a state in between undeath and life, not affected by positive or negative energy, then a level drain (classic negative energy) shouldn't affect him at all. The only question is whether or not it "kicks in" when the undead-like effect ends. I would argue "nope". Negative levels are, I admit, different then hit point damage, but not THAT different. Take a fireball, your body is injured, it has to heal later. Take a level drain, your life is sucked away, a strong body can shrug it off with time, a weak body is permanently crippled. What I'm getting at is they have something in common. Both have an effect that happens instantaneously, no duration. That means no break enchantment, no dispel magic. It happens. It can be healed, but the bad effect is over, all you have is the leftover damage done to the body. So then, if you had temporary immunity to the negative energy, it would run through the body and do nothing at all. By the time the body is fully human again, there's no negative energy left in it to hit it with negative levels. No lingering effects. It would be synonymous with polymorphing into something fire immune and taking a fireball. Change back, still fine. Just the way I see it, hope it's good times either way it plays.