Help with silent image [Archive] - Wizards Community

Help with silent image [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
talon81
09-04-07, 09:45 PM Hi all, long time player but new to the boards so forgive me if this has been covered. I have a player that wanted to cast silent image as a dark cloud of force or some such around the head of a foe. Obviouslly i said no as this was overpowered (effectivlly using a 1st lvl spell to emulate the effects of a 2nd level one "blindness") however when he protested I found to my dismay there was no rule i could find that specifically states that illusions cant be made to occupy the same space as enemies. Apart from logical dm reasoning is there any solid refrerence in the books that I could use to back me up? thanks in advance.
Asciiman
09-04-07, 10:10 PM There is nothing in the books because you are wrong. By RAW this is just fine. But understand that it isn't as good as blindness because it doesn't move with the target. Once the target is out of the area it ceases to be an issue anymore.
talon81
09-04-07, 10:19 PM ok stupid me lol, thanks for sorting that out. That does make sense, I know he will ready to move the illusion with the monster so the effect will travel with him and keep him blind. but still that means he will have to use all his actions to do so (actually since the char is a bard it will help him to have something usefull to do lol) thanks again.
Averroes
09-05-07, 11:23 AM Its not a bad use of Silent image, but there are a number of reasons its alot less powerful than blindness.

1: He can move the image with the monster, so long as it doesn't leave the area of the spell. four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level

2. Since the monster will be in contact with the figment the monster does get his will save. Which the DC probably won't be very high as its a 1st level spell. vs the one higher of the 2nd

3. Duration is concentration. So all he can do while it is taking effect is move and concentrate. Unlike blindness which is permanet.
heffroncm
09-05-07, 12:20 PM Also, he has two ways to do the area: Have everything around the monster be blind, or when the monster moves on the first round after castomg, he'll be able to see again until the caster's turn comes around to move the image. After that 1st round, the Caster can Ready an action to move the image with the monster... if he thinks of that.
DrMorganes
09-05-07, 12:28 PM Check the Rules of the Game Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) articles All About Illusions. Figments and their uses are covered in more detail in All About Illusions, Part 4 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a).

To specifically address you question:

There is no "solid DM reasoning" which will allow you to disallow placing an illusion in the same square as another creature. However, depending on the specifics of the illusion, such positioning may well count as "interaction" and allow a saving throw to disbelieve. As noted by others, Silent Image won't carry much of a Save DC.

So - allow it. In fact, try not to discourage creative thinking (which proper use of illusions requires) in your players at all. Allow such tactics with the caveat that you'll make a final, permanent ruling after the game, make the ad hoc ruling to keep the game going, and be glad that you have players willing to do more than "charge, full attack, repeat".
talon81
09-05-07, 09:32 PM well thank you all, especially for the added link to "all about illusions" i did not realise that disbelief in figments alowed you to make them transparent, you see my reasoning with it being at least equal to blind is that that even if the monster made its save it still couldent see through the image. but now knowing that it seems much weaker, especially since even if the monster fails its save the char will have to continue to use all his readied actions to move it with him.
( incidently i DO like to encourage creative thinking at my table, im not an especially strict dm at all, its just i have to be particularly watchful of actions my players take with magic, they are all experts at finding loopholes in spells that give me headaches trying to adjudicate. and they are not shy about arguing with my rulings when they are made lol)
heffroncm
09-05-07, 11:20 PM well thank you all, especially for the added link to "all about illusions" i did not realise that disbelief in figments alowed you to make them transparent, you see my reasoning with it being at least equal to blind is that that even if the monster made its save it still couldent see through the image. but now knowing that it seems much weaker, especially since even if the monster fails its save the char will have to continue to use all his readied actions to move it with him.
( incidently i DO like to encourage creative thinking at my table, im not an especially strict dm at all, its just i have to be particularly watchful of actions my players take with magic, they are all experts at finding loopholes in spells that give me headaches trying to adjudicate. and they are not shy about arguing with my rulings when they are made lol)

Put the lid on those arguments quick, they can destroy a game for everyone. It's a standing rule at my table that ANY rules dispute is handled for the moment by me. A player can come to me later, after the game, with his argument as to why it should work differently for next time. If he has enough supporting evidence or a strong enough argument, I change things, note it down, and rule it that way from now on.

Just keep a log of all your rulings for future referance.
goawayugh
09-06-07, 02:30 PM be glad that you have players willing to do more than "charge, full attack, repeat".

Agreed 1000%!!! I LOVE it when PC's come up with some creative idea other than "I pull out my weapon" *rolls attack*.

Illusions are some of the most vague spells to adjudicate rules for. I've read those articles a while ago and they cleared everything up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
talon81 09-04-07, 09:45 PM	Hi all, long time player but new to the boards so forgive me if this has been covered. I have a player that wanted to cast silent image as a dark cloud of force or some such around the head of a foe. Obviouslly i said no as this was overpowered (effectivlly using a 1st lvl spell to emulate the effects of a 2nd level one "blindness") however when he protested I found to my dismay there was no rule i could find that specifically states that illusions cant be made to occupy the same space as enemies. Apart from logical dm reasoning is there any solid refrerence in the books that I could use to back me up? thanks in advance.
Asciiman 09-04-07, 10:10 PM	There is nothing in the books because you are wrong. By RAW this is just fine. But understand that it isn't as good as blindness because it doesn't move with the target. Once the target is out of the area it ceases to be an issue anymore.
talon81 09-04-07, 10:19 PM	ok stupid me lol, thanks for sorting that out. That does make sense, I know he will ready to move the illusion with the monster so the effect will travel with him and keep him blind. but still that means he will have to use all his actions to do so (actually since the char is a bard it will help him to have something usefull to do lol) thanks again.
Averroes 09-05-07, 11:23 AM	Its not a bad use of Silent image, but there are a number of reasons its alot less powerful than blindness. 1: He can move the image with the monster, so long as it doesn't leave the area of the spell. four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level 2. Since the monster will be in contact with the figment the monster does get his will save. Which the DC probably won't be very high as its a 1st level spell. vs the one higher of the 2nd 3. Duration is concentration. So all he can do while it is taking effect is move and concentrate. Unlike blindness which is permanet.
heffroncm 09-05-07, 12:20 PM	Also, he has two ways to do the area: Have everything around the monster be blind, or when the monster moves on the first round after castomg, he'll be able to see again until the caster's turn comes around to move the image. After that 1st round, the Caster can Ready an action to move the image with the monster... if he thinks of that.
DrMorganes 09-05-07, 12:28 PM	Check the Rules of the Game Archive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) articles All About Illusions. Figments and their uses are covered in more detail in All About Illusions, Part 4 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a). To specifically address you question: There is no "solid DM reasoning" which will allow you to disallow placing an illusion in the same square as another creature. However, depending on the specifics of the illusion, such positioning may well count as "interaction" and allow a saving throw to disbelieve. As noted by others, Silent Image won't carry much of a Save DC. So - allow it. In fact, try not to discourage creative thinking (which proper use of illusions requires) in your players at all. Allow such tactics with the caveat that you'll make a final, permanent ruling after the game, make the ad hoc ruling to keep the game going, and be glad that you have players willing to do more than "charge, full attack, repeat".
talon81 09-05-07, 09:32 PM	well thank you all, especially for the added link to "all about illusions" i did not realise that disbelief in figments alowed you to make them transparent, you see my reasoning with it being at least equal to blind is that that even if the monster made its save it still couldent see through the image. but now knowing that it seems much weaker, especially since even if the monster fails its save the char will have to continue to use all his readied actions to move it with him. ( incidently i DO like to encourage creative thinking at my table, im not an especially strict dm at all, its just i have to be particularly watchful of actions my players take with magic, they are all experts at finding loopholes in spells that give me headaches trying to adjudicate. and they are not shy about arguing with my rulings when they are made lol)
heffroncm 09-05-07, 11:20 PM	well thank you all, especially for the added link to "all about illusions" i did not realise that disbelief in figments alowed you to make them transparent, you see my reasoning with it being at least equal to blind is that that even if the monster made its save it still couldent see through the image. but now knowing that it seems much weaker, especially since even if the monster fails its save the char will have to continue to use all his readied actions to move it with him. ( incidently i DO like to encourage creative thinking at my table, im not an especially strict dm at all, its just i have to be particularly watchful of actions my players take with magic, they are all experts at finding loopholes in spells that give me headaches trying to adjudicate. and they are not shy about arguing with my rulings when they are made lol) Put the lid on those arguments quick, they can destroy a game for everyone. It's a standing rule at my table that ANY rules dispute is handled for the moment by me. A player can come to me later, after the game, with his argument as to why it should work differently for next time. If he has enough supporting evidence or a strong enough argument, I change things, note it down, and rule it that way from now on. Just keep a log of all your rulings for future referance.
goawayugh 09-06-07, 02:30 PM	be glad that you have players willing to do more than "charge, full attack, repeat". Agreed 1000%!!! I LOVE it when PC's come up with some creative idea other than "I pull out my weapon" rolls attack. Illusions are some of the most vague spells to adjudicate rules for. I've read those articles a while ago and they cleared everything up.