Hidden = Invisible [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hidden = Invisible [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MidKnight
04-23-07, 06:08 AM Would a character that has succesfully hidden against an opponent (i.e. won the hide vs. spot check), get the +2 bonus to attack in a ranged attack against that opponent (from invisible* attacker)? Or the only advantage of attacking from a hidden place is to catch the defender flat-footed?

*From the SRD:
"Invisible: Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any)."

Thanks!
leroy_brown
04-23-07, 08:38 AM I would say, it would just be the flat footed. You have to pop out of cover to make the attack (hence the sniping roll) so you would be visible when you fire, whereas the invisibilty lasts until you actually make an attack.

Of course, you could make a judgement call depending on the hide vs spot roll.
Dazzer
04-23-07, 08:50 AM It would, as many things do, depend on the situation.

If the hidden person was hidden above the guy to be struck, in the corner, on a ledge, behind him. I would say, yes.

If he was hiding behind a rock, and had to come out to shoot, I would say no.

Generally, I tell my players whether or not they are considered invisible, and they don't generally ask seeing as flat-footed is really all they want, +2 to hit is just some bonus to cushion the attack.
orionm42
04-23-07, 09:33 AM The real question is how do you interpret this excerpt from the description of the hide skill...

It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

Whether a hidden character is allowed to get off one shot before he is no longer hidden is up to the DM. I have seen DMs rule both ways here. However, the sniping rules seem to indicate the character remains hidden for the first shot....he would then need to take the -20 penalty to hide again.

If you rule the player is hidden for one shot, I would say the combat modifiers for an invisible attacker apply (you can also view it as the defender is "blind" against the hidden character....the modifiers are the same).
Marcus Majarra
04-23-07, 10:43 AM I would say, it would just be the flat footed.

Whoa there, Nelly. Invisibility doesn't let you treat your opponents as flat-footed. It denies your opponent's Dex bonus to AC against all your attacks, and it provides you with a +2 bonus on your attack roll against them.
Empiro
04-23-07, 08:48 PM The attack should treat you as invisible, since as stated above, the rules for Sniping doesn't make sense otherwise. Remember, you can fire from behind cover, and you can hide when you have cover -- ergo, you should be able shoot someone if you're hiding behind a rock, because you only have to "pop out" a part of the way.
weasel0
04-23-07, 09:22 PM Marcus, isn't that exactly what flat-footed is? Denied dex to AC? So invisibility would treat the target as flat-footed and provide a +2 bonus(until they can see you). Yes I agree on the actual mechanics. I'm just nit-picking the terminology.
Nom
04-23-07, 11:24 PM Very much no. "Flat-footed" is the condition that you are in before you act in combat (or, bizarrely, while balancing). When you are flat-footed you (1) are denied Dex to AC and (2) cannot make AoOs.

Denied Dex to AC is the condition of not being able to apply any Dexterity or Dodge bonuses to your AC. It occurs when you "cannot react to an attack", whether because you are flat-footed, unaware of your attacker, or unable to move significantly.

The two terms are in no way interchangeable, except perhaps for the "flat-footed AC" entry on your character sheet, which would be much better termed "denied Dex to AC". Not least because two of the 11 core character classes are not denied Dex to AC from flat-footedness from a very low level (Brb 2, Rog 4).
Marcus Majarra
04-24-07, 01:10 AM Indeed. Even a 2nd-level barbarian, despite retaining his Dex bonus while flat-footed, would still be denied the same bonus against an invisible attacker.
Heahengel
04-24-07, 02:12 AM Indeed. Even a 2nd-level barbarian, despite retaining his Dex bonus while flat-footed, would still be denied the same bonus against an invisible attacker.

Not true, the Uncanny Dodge ability is very specific that the barbarian cannot lose his dex bonus to ac unless he is helpless. Being attacked by an invisible attacker is actually a specific example of when Uncanny Dodge works.

Edit: See correction below.
tos_shai_hulud
04-24-07, 07:50 AM Not true, the Uncanny Dodge ability is very specific that the barbarian cannot lose his dex bonus to ac unless he is helpless. Being attacked by an invisible attacker is actually a specific example of when Uncanny Dodge works.

Not true, the Uncanny Dodge has no effect on a Barbarian who has been feinted in combat (he still loses his Dex bonus to AC from a successful feint). He does not need to be helpless. The only two circumstances where a normal character would lose their dexterity bonus and a character with uncanny dodge would not is when Flat-Footed or struck by an invisible attacker. The select other ways of denying dexterity bonus still apply (such as feinting, and perhaps others).
Nom
04-24-07, 10:49 AM That said, Marcus' comment is still incorrect, since invisible attacker is explicitly described as a situation where Dex bonus to AC is retained with UD.
Marcus Majarra
04-26-07, 02:01 PM Indeed, my statement was incorrect. It's still important to note the difference between being caught flat-footed or being denied one's Dex bonus to AC.
WinDReiN
04-26-07, 03:48 PM I would say you get +2 to hit and ignore dex bonuses. After the first attack you'll probably become invisible and loose both bonuses.
Wopple
04-30-07, 11:30 AM Okay.. jeeze..

If they attacked them before they were in combat, ie they were just walking past the hidden guy, they would attack against flat footed. Also, all combattants are flat footed before they make their first action in a round. If you are last in init order, you are flat footer the entire first round.

Once in a battle, you are never flat footed for anyone barring special techniques. This includes new parties joining the battle, even ones you are unaware of.

Flat footed is NOT the same as denied dex bonus, but both allow for sneak attack etc.

If you were hiding and then attack someone already in combat, they will NOT be flat footed, or denied their dex bonus.

Sniping -20 is an attempt to REHIDE. You cannot attack while hiding. In order to shoot at them, you need line of effect, which means they can see you if you are visible. Therefore you get NO PLUSSES to attack if attacking after leaving a hide. After you attack, if you make the -20 hide check against their spot check, they will not know your location. It seems odd, but even though they don't know exactly where you are, they see that they are being attacked, just as if an archer shot at them, during a battle, from 300 feet away or someting.
meabolex
04-30-07, 11:43 AM Sniping -20 is an attempt to REHIDE. You cannot attack while hiding.

Yes you can, it's just practically impossible.

3.5 SRD:
It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

To attack while hiding, you need concealment/cover and you cannot be observed. If you make an attack while hiding (using concealment/cover and you're not being observed), then your opponent is treated as flat-footed as if being struck by an invisible attacker.

3.5 FAQ:
If a rogue has successfully hidden behind some bushes and fires an arrow at a target less than 30 feet away from her, does she deal sneak attack damage?
Yes.
The rules don’t come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flat-footed, and thus deals sneak attack damage.

Melee attacks are harder to make than ranged attacks, but it's quite possible as a high level ranger given camouflage and hide in plain sight.

However, you are correct that in the sniping use of the hide skill, the hide check at -20 is to keep hidden. The initial attack assumes you've already hidden.
Heahengel
05-01-07, 09:18 PM If you were hiding and then attack someone already in combat, they will NOT be flat footed, or denied their dex bonus.

Sniping -20 is an attempt to REHIDE. You cannot attack while hiding. In order to shoot at them, you need line of effect, which means they can see you if you are visible. Therefore you get NO PLUSSES to attack if attacking after leaving a hide. After you attack, if you make the -20 hide check against their spot check, they will not know your location. It seems odd, but even though they don't know exactly where you are, they see that they are being attacked, just as if an archer shot at them, during a battle, from 300 feet away or someting.

I think you are missreading the hide skill. If its impossible for an enemy to see you, with no line of sight, then you don't need to make a hide check at all - you have either total cover or concealment. You only need cover or concealment to hide. The point of hide is to make it harder to see you when it is possible for someone to see you. The reason it is hard to stay hidden while attacking isn't that you have too peek out from your total cover, its that the motion from your attack make it a lot easier to notice you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MidKnight 04-23-07, 06:08 AM	Would a character that has succesfully hidden against an opponent (i.e. won the hide vs. spot check), get the +2 bonus to attack in a ranged attack against that opponent (from invisible* attacker)? Or the only advantage of attacking from a hidden place is to catch the defender flat-footed? *From the SRD: "Invisible: Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any)." Thanks!
leroy_brown 04-23-07, 08:38 AM	I would say, it would just be the flat footed. You have to pop out of cover to make the attack (hence the sniping roll) so you would be visible when you fire, whereas the invisibilty lasts until you actually make an attack. Of course, you could make a judgement call depending on the hide vs spot roll.
Dazzer 04-23-07, 08:50 AM	It would, as many things do, depend on the situation. If the hidden person was hidden above the guy to be struck, in the corner, on a ledge, behind him. I would say, yes. If he was hiding behind a rock, and had to come out to shoot, I would say no. Generally, I tell my players whether or not they are considered invisible, and they don't generally ask seeing as flat-footed is really all they want, +2 to hit is just some bonus to cushion the attack.
orionm42 04-23-07, 09:33 AM	The real question is how do you interpret this excerpt from the description of the hide skill... It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. Whether a hidden character is allowed to get off one shot before he is no longer hidden is up to the DM. I have seen DMs rule both ways here. However, the sniping rules seem to indicate the character remains hidden for the first shot....he would then need to take the -20 penalty to hide again. If you rule the player is hidden for one shot, I would say the combat modifiers for an invisible attacker apply (you can also view it as the defender is "blind" against the hidden character....the modifiers are the same).
Marcus Majarra 04-23-07, 10:43 AM	I would say, it would just be the flat footed. Whoa there, Nelly. Invisibility doesn't let you treat your opponents as flat-footed. It denies your opponent's Dex bonus to AC against all your attacks, and it provides you with a +2 bonus on your attack roll against them.
Empiro 04-23-07, 08:48 PM	The attack should treat you as invisible, since as stated above, the rules for Sniping doesn't make sense otherwise. Remember, you can fire from behind cover, and you can hide when you have cover -- ergo, you should be able shoot someone if you're hiding behind a rock, because you only have to "pop out" a part of the way.
weasel0 04-23-07, 09:22 PM	Marcus, isn't that exactly what flat-footed is? Denied dex to AC? So invisibility would treat the target as flat-footed and provide a +2 bonus(until they can see you). Yes I agree on the actual mechanics. I'm just nit-picking the terminology.
Nom 04-23-07, 11:24 PM	Very much no. "Flat-footed" is the condition that you are in before you act in combat (or, bizarrely, while balancing). When you are flat-footed you (1) are denied Dex to AC and (2) cannot make AoOs. Denied Dex to AC is the condition of not being able to apply any Dexterity or Dodge bonuses to your AC. It occurs when you "cannot react to an attack", whether because you are flat-footed, unaware of your attacker, or unable to move significantly. The two terms are in no way interchangeable, except perhaps for the "flat-footed AC" entry on your character sheet, which would be much better termed "denied Dex to AC". Not least because two of the 11 core character classes are not denied Dex to AC from flat-footedness from a very low level (Brb 2, Rog 4).
Marcus Majarra 04-24-07, 01:10 AM	Indeed. Even a 2nd-level barbarian, despite retaining his Dex bonus while flat-footed, would still be denied the same bonus against an invisible attacker.
Heahengel 04-24-07, 02:12 AM	Indeed. Even a 2nd-level barbarian, despite retaining his Dex bonus while flat-footed, would still be denied the same bonus against an invisible attacker. Not true, the Uncanny Dodge ability is very specific that the barbarian cannot lose his dex bonus to ac unless he is helpless. Being attacked by an invisible attacker is actually a specific example of when Uncanny Dodge works. Edit: See correction below.
tos_shai_hulud 04-24-07, 07:50 AM	Not true, the Uncanny Dodge ability is very specific that the barbarian cannot lose his dex bonus to ac unless he is helpless. Being attacked by an invisible attacker is actually a specific example of when Uncanny Dodge works. Not true, the Uncanny Dodge has no effect on a Barbarian who has been feinted in combat (he still loses his Dex bonus to AC from a successful feint). He does not need to be helpless. The only two circumstances where a normal character would lose their dexterity bonus and a character with uncanny dodge would not is when Flat-Footed or struck by an invisible attacker. The select other ways of denying dexterity bonus still apply (such as feinting, and perhaps others).
Nom 04-24-07, 10:49 AM	That said, Marcus' comment is still incorrect, since invisible attacker is explicitly described as a situation where Dex bonus to AC is retained with UD.
Marcus Majarra 04-26-07, 02:01 PM	Indeed, my statement was incorrect. It's still important to note the difference between being caught flat-footed or being denied one's Dex bonus to AC.
WinDReiN 04-26-07, 03:48 PM	I would say you get +2 to hit and ignore dex bonuses. After the first attack you'll probably become invisible and loose both bonuses.
Wopple 04-30-07, 11:30 AM	Okay.. jeeze.. If they attacked them before they were in combat, ie they were just walking past the hidden guy, they would attack against flat footed. Also, all combattants are flat footed before they make their first action in a round. If you are last in init order, you are flat footer the entire first round. Once in a battle, you are never flat footed for anyone barring special techniques. This includes new parties joining the battle, even ones you are unaware of. Flat footed is NOT the same as denied dex bonus, but both allow for sneak attack etc. If you were hiding and then attack someone already in combat, they will NOT be flat footed, or denied their dex bonus. Sniping -20 is an attempt to REHIDE. You cannot attack while hiding. In order to shoot at them, you need line of effect, which means they can see you if you are visible. Therefore you get NO PLUSSES to attack if attacking after leaving a hide. After you attack, if you make the -20 hide check against their spot check, they will not know your location. It seems odd, but even though they don't know exactly where you are, they see that they are being attacked, just as if an archer shot at them, during a battle, from 300 feet away or someting.
meabolex 04-30-07, 11:43 AM	Sniping -20 is an attempt to REHIDE. You cannot attack while hiding. Yes you can, it's just practically impossible. 3.5 SRD: It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. To attack while hiding, you need concealment/cover and you cannot be observed. If you make an attack while hiding (using concealment/cover and you're not being observed), then your opponent is treated as flat-footed as if being struck by an invisible attacker. 3.5 FAQ: If a rogue has successfully hidden behind some bushes and fires an arrow at a target less than 30 feet away from her, does she deal sneak attack damage? Yes. The rules don’t come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flat-footed, and thus deals sneak attack damage. Melee attacks are harder to make than ranged attacks, but it's quite possible as a high level ranger given camouflage and hide in plain sight. However, you are correct that in the sniping use of the hide skill, the hide check at -20 is to keep hidden. The initial attack assumes you've already hidden.
Heahengel 05-01-07, 09:18 PM	If you were hiding and then attack someone already in combat, they will NOT be flat footed, or denied their dex bonus. Sniping -20 is an attempt to REHIDE. You cannot attack while hiding. In order to shoot at them, you need line of effect, which means they can see you if you are visible. Therefore you get NO PLUSSES to attack if attacking after leaving a hide. After you attack, if you make the -20 hide check against their spot check, they will not know your location. It seems odd, but even though they don't know exactly where you are, they see that they are being attacked, just as if an archer shot at them, during a battle, from 300 feet away or someting. I think you are missreading the hide skill. If its impossible for an enemy to see you, with no line of sight, then you don't need to make a hide check at all - you have either total cover or concealment. You only need cover or concealment to hide. The point of hide is to make it harder to see you when it is possible for someone to see you. The reason it is hard to stay hidden while attacking isn't that you have too peek out from your total cover, its that the motion from your attack make it a lot easier to notice you.