Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cuindless 11-02-07, 11:29 AM	Okay, I'd like to rules check this against a group of other DMs to make sure that I'm planning it right. The PCs are closing in on a BBEG Rogue5/Assassin10. He has Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) and Whirlwind Attack. With greater invisibility, can he effectively make a sneak attack against everyone within 10 feet of him? Relevent SRD stuff: Sneak Attack: "The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target." Whirlwind Attack: "When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach." Invisibility: "Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any)." Spiked Chain: "A spiked chain has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe."
Finarin Panjoro 11-02-07, 02:14 PM	You are correct, unless any of the PCs in question have uncanny dodge (such as a rogue or barbarian) or have taken the blind-fight feat. Then the assassin cannot sneak attack them (atleast not due to being invisible). You should have the assassin get a potion of enlarge person and be able to sneak attack everyone within 20 feet.
mvincent 11-02-07, 02:24 PM	You should have the assassin get a potion of enlarge person and be able to sneak attack everyone within 20 feet.Combat reflexes would be nice too, to take advantage of all the sneak attack AoO's that will be provoked.
Cuindless 11-02-07, 03:10 PM	You are correct, unless any of the PCs in question have uncanny dodge (such as a rogue or barbarian) or have taken the blind-fight feat. Then the assassin cannot sneak attack them (atleast not due to being invisible). You should have the assassin get a potion of enlarge person and be able to sneak attack everyone within 20 feet. He has one now :D Nobody has blind-fight, so that's a non-issue. The uncanny dodge problem is interesting, though. The rogue has a very low will save, though, so it may be possible to immobilize his with a hold person wand or something like that before the combat. The enemy in question has maxed out UMD. Combat reflexes would be nice too, to take advantage of all the sneak attack AoO's that will be provoked. He has that feat as well... awesome! Thanks both of you for rules checking this. This is going to be a great encounter.
mvincent 11-02-07, 04:34 PM	This is going to be a great encounter.Well (as long as we're aiming for a TPK;)): Note that as a large figure, the party has a decent chance of running into him if he's on the ground. You've probably already though of this, but just in case: - Spider climb should allow him to attack from the ceiling. - Slippers of Spider Climbing would allow him to move while doing so (i.e. unlike spider climb, doesn't need his hands free to move). - Flying is even better.
runestar 11-03-07, 12:37 AM	It is a shame you can only study 1 foe at a time... Else - whirlwind death attack...:P
Cuindless 11-03-07, 11:46 AM	Well (as long as we're aiming for a TPK;)): Note that as a large figure, the party has a decent chance of running into him if he's on the ground. You've probably already though of this, but just in case: - Spider climb should allow him to attack from the ceiling. - Slippers of Spider Climbing would allow him to move while doing so (i.e. unlike spider climb, doesn't need his hands free to move). - Flying is even better. I'm not specifically aiming for a TPK, but this is the final bad guy for this adventure, and as such should be a very difficult encounter. 16th level enemy against a party of 5 12th level characters should be fun. I'm not sure if I'll use fly or spider climb, but I could see outfitting him with the slippers... still, I'm not sure that will be necessary. I'm sure at least 2 PCs will be going down. It is a shame you can only study 1 foe at a time... Else - whirlwind death attack...:P That... is... disgusting... :D
Marcus Majarra 11-03-07, 12:21 PM	A CR 15 opponent against a 5-man 12th-level party will be challenging, but not too difficult. Make sure you read up on the good assassin spells (both core and non core) and avoid a fair fight at all costs.
Drag0nUL 11-03-07, 04:27 PM	I really don't think this will be a very tough encounter. By level 12 they should have means of locating invisible foes, like True Seeing, Invisibility Purge, or even Dispel Magic. Once your bad guy becomes visible I expect him to go down pretty fast. I assume he doesn't have more than 100 HP at most, which a decent level 12 character can chew through in a couple of rounds, not to mention a whole party. If they have no means of seeing him at this level...well.they had it coming.
runestar 11-03-07, 09:18 PM	Plus, given how classed npcs are notoriously weak for their crs, I am leery about a rogue5/assassin10 being a true cr15... Whether he will prove to be a sufficient threat or not almost seems contingent on whether he can succeed on taking out a PC with death attack (the closest definition to "draining the party of 25% of their resources" I can find...) :confused:
Cuindless 11-04-07, 02:33 PM	Well, this isn't going to be the first encounter of the adventure, it's going to be the last. The PCs are going to be pressed for time and will have exhausted some of their resources already. The BBEG will have the upper hand as well because they're invading his territory, and he has several pre-readied traps and the like. The opponent might be weak compared to a player of the same level, but he has an arsenal of weapons, equipment, traps and tactics at his command. I think this encounter is going to rock...
Sinis 11-05-07, 05:59 PM	If your PCs are clever, they'll have something resembling See Invisibility or Invisibility Purge waiting (even at much lower levels, PCs I've played with are wary of that stuff). Even area dispels could lay your plan low. In any case, the PCs may find it very easy once he's visible. If they don't have any of this stuff ready, they're gonna get butchered.
Cuindless 11-05-07, 08:15 PM	If your PCs are clever, they'll have something resembling See Invisibility or Invisibility Purge waiting (even at much lower levels, PCs I've played with are wary of that stuff). Even area dispels could lay your plan low. In any case, the PCs may find it very easy once he's visible. If they don't have any of this stuff ready, they're gonna get butchered. They're infiltrating a Thieves Guild, so they're going to probably have spent their invisibility purges by then. They're going to be down hit points and spells by the time they encounter this mastermind. By the way, I love the sig!
Sinis 11-06-07, 03:49 PM	They're infiltrating a Thieves Guild, so they're going to probably have spent their invisibility purges by then. They're going to be down hit points and spells by the time they encounter this mastermind. I wouldn't take this as given, unless for some reason they (the enemies) all carry potions of invisibility. A thieves guild does not necessarily house a lot of invisible folks. Sneaky ones maybe, but they may not be using IP against that stuff. The one I'd be more worried about is See Invisible. I hate to be a stick in the mud, I feel I have to add this in. Here's my realistic view of how it will go down: I feel this assassin dude is either going to be visible first round when one of the party members yelps "I can't see him!", or he's going to be invisible the whole time and roll the party. This necessarily means that the fight will go one of two ways. In the first scenario, where he's basically immediately visible, he'll be a tough one, and there's only so much he can do against all the junk the PCs will throw at him, further, he'll be visible, and all that sneak damage will evaporate, and he wont really press the PCs damage-wise. It may not be that hard. In the end, he might bite it against a save or die will/fort save, or a PC might succeed in starting grapple (unlikely, but Improved Grapple is a feat available!), or he might get enervated to death (or infirmity, before being promptly killed). In the second scenario, he butchers the party, utterly. If they can't see him and have no method of revealing him, and he has these ranged attack of opportunities, the PCs will never, *ever* find him, especially if he does the 5-foot shuffle the whole time. It'll be like the dragons who have the hover feat, only worse. Basically, I feel like your party is going to either going to have a good time against him, or they're going to get a TPK. If I were you, I'd keep track of your PC's resources, and if they can't Invisibility Purge, or they can't See Invisible, I'd heavily consider downgrading the Improved Invisibility to straight Invisibility. ...Unless your PCs tend to be pretty beastly, and then, have at 'em! By the way, I love the sig! Why thank you! :)
Arr MiHardies 11-08-07, 07:59 PM	sorry to resurrect a slightly dead thread, but I distinctly recall mention in the Rules compendium regarding precision attacks that: a) the damage can only be applied to a full round attack, and b) feats and abilities that provide extra attacks, such as rapid shot only get to have precision damage applied on the first attack roll. To me, with a spiked chain, and whirlwind, it seems to me as though B would be the case, and only the first target would get the sneak attack damage. Imagine taking a chain and whipping it around you trying to hit everyone. You are only going to be able to be accurate with the first attack, after that, realistically, the chain would wrap around your first opponent a bit, or get flung off in a different direction, making precision on all the following attacks difficult, if not impossible. Personally, I would rule that only the first attack with whirlwind attack gets the precision damage, regardless of the weapon, as this feat seems to clearly fall under the exclusions mentioned in the rules.
Cuindless 11-10-07, 11:09 AM	sorry to resurrect a slightly dead thread, but I distinctly recall mention in the Rules compendium regarding precision attacks that: a) the damage can only be applied to a full round attack, and b) feats and abilities that provide extra attacks, such as rapid shot only get to have precision damage applied on the first attack roll. To me, with a spiked chain, and whirlwind, it seems to me as though B would be the case, and only the first target would get the sneak attack damage. Imagine taking a chain and whipping it around you trying to hit everyone. You are only going to be able to be accurate with the first attack, after that, realistically, the chain would wrap around your first opponent a bit, or get flung off in a different direction, making precision on all the following attacks difficult, if not impossible. Personally, I would rule that only the first attack with whirlwind attack gets the precision damage, regardless of the weapon, as this feat seems to clearly fall under the exclusions mentioned in the rules. I don't have the RC... can you quote and page reference?
Arr MiHardies 11-10-07, 12:25 PM	Rules Compendium: Page 42, last paragraph A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full round action, such as the many shot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group. So, after re-reading it, Unless the whirlwind attack is a full attack action, (i don't know off the top of my head) it shouldnt be allowed. Edit: just looked up whirlwind attack, and it is a full attack action, however: When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. shouldn't the sneak attack damage count as a "bonus" for the purposes of this?
Marcus Majarra 11-10-07, 08:29 PM	shouldn't the sneak attack damage count as a "bonus" for the purposes of this? No. Sneak attack isn't bonus or extra attacks. It's extra damage.
Arr MiHardies 11-11-07, 12:45 PM	well then, it could be taken to an extreme then and fully abused. take, say psionic weapon, sneak attack, and psychic strike, whirlwind attack, and other similar feats, and you'll be doing insane amounts of damage all at once. I really don't think I would allow this in my games.
Marcus Majarra 11-11-07, 02:15 PM	well then, it could be taken to an extreme then and fully abused. take, say psionic weapon, sneak attack, and psychic strike, whirlwind attack, and other similar feats, and you'll be doing insane amounts of damage all at once. I really don't think I would allow this in my games. This is why you need to make sure the extra damage applies to a single attack, or to every attack. Psionic weapon and psychic strike always apply to a single attack. As such, they're not very synergistic with Whirlwind Attack. Sneak attack, however, applies to all attacks. Not that it matters, anyway. What you call abuse is actually a very small figure compared to what spellcasters can already do. Sneak attack is already easy enough to prevent.
Zavia 11-12-07, 07:39 AM	FYI, to make it an even... "greater" encounter, make it such that your bbeg has poison, and some kind of diversion(s) ready, especially to help flank or run away. He should also have some strategic traps. Like one main one, and a few to the sides that he will force the PCs to walk over or something. Then have one "trap" that makes everything explode in 5 minutes, and see the PCs do a mad scramble for the exit while explosions explode beind them ala action shows. Tell us how it goes ya?
Cuindless 11-12-07, 11:48 PM	Okay, so I took some of the suggestions here and added them in to the final encounter just to make it a little more difficult in case the PCs had any preparations to counter the greater invisibility. The inclusion of some special traps and a dimension door on contingency had me ready to go. The PCs waded through the thieves guild, disarming traps and killing bad guys left and right, sparing a few to bring to the authorities and question about the next layer of the "evil onion". Many of the BBEG's lieutenants were also invisible, so that wasted some of the party's resources. All the while, the BBEG was using his unique knowledge of the complex to harry the party with hit and run tactics, et cetera. He showed up during several minor fights to do some damage and run away. Finally, they tracked him down to his specially prepared "final stand" room with a few traps and the like. Using their standard "kick down the door" method, they entered a completely empty (seeming) room. The party leader (male aasimar paladin) ordered the cleric to invisibility purge only to discover that he had used his last one earlier. At that point, the assassin had consumed the enlarge person potion and began whirlwind attacking from above with the slippers of spider climb. 10d6 damage is a LOT. The sorcerer dropped into negatives first, thus eliminating the most credible threat to the assassin. The paladin, thinking quickly, downed a see invisibility potion and ordered the cleric to cast fly on him while he pointed in the general direction of the enemy. The rogue and ranger took their turns firing into the indicated square, and the ranger even scored a hit. The cleric successfully cast defensively, allowing the paladin to fly. The assassin attacked again, dropping the rogue into negatives. The paladin flew up to attack, provoking two attacks of opportunity due to the assassin's amazing reach. He was still able to do a good amount of damage with that first charge thanks to the charging smite. The cleric tried a targeted dispel magic, cancelling out the enlarge person but not the greater invisibility. This allowed the ranger to move out of range of the spiked chain. The sorcerer died of his wounds this round. The rogue failed to stabilize. The assassin tumbled out and attacked the paladin. The paladin responded with another charging smite (receiving an AoO in the process). The cleric cast prayer. The ranger shot 3 arrows and managed to hit with one. The rogue failed to stabilize. The assassin tumbled out and attacked the paladin again. The paladin responded with another charging smite. By this time, the assassin was getting low in hit points, but so was the paladin. The cleric (I don't know what he was thinking) cast a flame strike into the area with both the paladin and the assassin... The assassin (of course) saves for no damage thanks to evasion, but the paladin still takes half. This drops the paladin into negatives. At this point, I'm thinking TPK, but then the ranger rolls two criticals in a row and beats concealment. This drops the assassin to 3 hit points, triggering his contingency spell and teleporting him away. The characters continued trying to fight for a few more rounds, thinking the assassin was still there. When they realized they weren't taking damage, the cleric started healing, but it was too late. The rogue had died of his wounds, and the paladin was very close. So, all in all, two characters dead, one unconscious and two badly injured. Some significant tactical errors were made on both sides, but it was a very challenging encounter and fun was had by all involved. The characters have earned an enemy for life...