Hole in the stairs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hole in the stairs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rechan
10-26-07, 09:37 AM I am going to have a priest at the top of some real rickety, narrow stairs, firing down at the PCs.

The stairs are narrow so that only one PC can go up them at a time. In the middle of the stairs is a trap - two steps collapse, falling onto a crate with metal spikes beneath (pretty much a standard spiked pit trap Cr 2).

My question is, how can the PCs get over the pit in the stairs? Would Jump or Climb checks be optimal? Would "You just take two rounds to crawl over it properly" be more appropriate?

I want to slow them down, but not completely stop them from going up the stairs.
Phrennzy
10-26-07, 10:12 AM The hole is more or less in the center of the stairs, and is a rough 10' long section.

On either side of the hole is a ledge. How wide the ledge is determines what the balance check is. And remember that you lose Dex to AC when balancing - which also means you can suffer sneak attacks.

When describing the stairs collapse, I would mention that a small ledge remains passable on either siide - only the central area has collapsed.

A neat idea and a new terrain idea. Don't be suprised if the PCs start asking if they can jump up to the second floor from the first floor, or if they can climb along the banister of the stairwell.
Rechan
10-26-07, 01:27 PM On either side of the hole is a ledge. How wide the ledge is determines what the balance check is. And remember that you lose Dex to AC when balancing - which also means you can suffer sneak attacks.

When describing the stairs collapse, I would mention that a small ledge remains passable on either siide - only the central area has collapsed.
Nice idea, thanks. It's amusing that none of the PCs have the Balance skill. :D

A neat idea and a new terrain idea. Don't be suprised if the PCs start asking if they can jump up to the second floor from the first floor, or if they can climb along the banister of the stairwell.
Yeah, this is what I expected - them to try and jump over the hole, or climb along the outside of the banister and over. Which naturally will give the priest time to peg them. (God I love spiritual weapon).

I also have placed crates and barrels at the bottom of the stairs to function as Difficult Terrain - to move past/over it, they'll have to move slower.
1 ton ghost
10-26-07, 02:18 PM remember, XP awards count for "overcoming a trap" or "defeating a monster"
yes, traditionally they are by a rogue busting (Disable Dev) said trap or beating down monster 'x', however, to the spoils go the victor, it's just how you get to that point.
tricking a monster out of it's lair to get 'random plot hook item' or finding another way around a trap will still net you XP.

typically, for traps, you can study the map, try and nagvigate around it, jump/climb/balance, etc. look at it's composition and defeat it w/ mundane means, ex)portculis trap can be wedged open w/ Str and a shield maybe, etc.
Rechan
10-26-07, 02:29 PM I understand that - I'm just asking what mechanical ways they could overcome the hole.

Also, don't you get XP if basically you trigger a trap and take the punishment? I.e. walking into it and taking the 2d6 of damage, but you still get the xp for the trap because, well, you took the punishment and survived.
1 ton ghost
10-26-07, 03:00 PM yes, most DMs rule that, but i don't.
seems wonky. surviving the trap, to me, is it's own reward. i don't reward ignorance or stupidity typically.

gluing spike holes
boards over a pit trap, Levitate, Fly
Stone Shaping closed a scything trap

these are all valid ways of overcoming a trap and gettin XP in my book
ShadowChemosh
10-26-07, 03:34 PM ....
The stairs are narrow so that only one PC can go up them at a time. In the middle of the stairs is a trap - two steps collapse,...
If its a whole two steps this should have almost no impact on getting across the hole. Anyone can easily take stairs 3 at a time so missing two steps would barely count as difficult terrain for a medium sized creature. Maybe it could be difficult terrain for a small sized creature.

If its a standard set of stairs its going to have a railing so any balance check would gain gain a +7 bonus if they use just one hand to brace with and +10 if using both hands. Assuming one side of the stair case is against a wall then they could use the wall to 'body brace' for +5 bonus. These are listed in Stormwrack pg84 under the Balance Skill.

On top of all this if its just the stairs and the underlying frame work is in place(assuming must be if players are suppose to get by) then a person can simply walk across by using both sides of the frame. While a balance check would be in order(maybe) it couldn't be higher than DC5 and as long as the hand rail is still their then they get +7 making it a guaranteed success.

Otherwise one could simply jump across the hole which if only two steps is about 2ft. So even without a 20ft move before the hole it would be a DC4 jump check and that should be easy to make it across even for those in heavy armor.

Assuming the wall is again right against the stairs a Climb check can be used to climb horizontally across the wall. A average worked wall is a DC15 and would require about 20ft worth of the characters movement.

Hope this helps.
Rechan
10-26-07, 03:39 PM Thanks Shadow.

Wow, that looks like it would be incredibly easy and not slow them down At All.

Do you have any suggestions on how to slow them down/make it Harder, without completely halting them/making it Too Difficult to get up there?
kymaera
10-26-07, 04:04 PM Have a trap that does the equivalent of a grease spell on the stairs.
ShadowChemosh
10-26-07, 07:08 PM Have a trap that does the equivalent of a grease spell on the stairs.
This is a nice straight forward method of doing what you wish.

Do you have any suggestions on how to slow them down/make it Harder, without completely halting them/making it Too Difficult to get up there?
If I was doing this I would increase the stair case to 10ft wide and have a 10ft section collapse instead of just a few steps. I would describe the side with the wall as being climbable with lots of hand holds left over from the frame work collapse. I would tell the players the section next to the wall requires climb checks as there is not enough places left to even balance across. I would set the Climb DC around 10 which is a little lower than a standard wall due to the extra hand holds. Climb changes each square to cost 20ft of movement per square so its 40ft of movement to climb across the gap.

On the side away from the wall I would describe that only the frame work beam was left and that it was about 9 inches wide with no hand holds. Plus sense the stair case is now 10ft wide they can't even body brace against the other wall. A 9” beam requires a DC10 Balance check and each square costs 10ft of movement so getting across requires 20ft of movement. Unless the character has 5 ranks in balance the PC is flat footed during the time he is balancing across. Keep in mind that if the PC does fail by 5 or more that he falls, but I would use the rules under climb and give a DC15 Reflex Save for him to grab the beam as he falls. Then next round he will need a DC15 Climb Check to pull himself back up.

If a character wished to Jump across and they moved 20ft before the jump the DC would be 10. If they tried without a running start then it would be a DC20. This is the quickest method to get across. Like above if the player misses the DC by 5 he misses and falls and should be given a DC15 Reflex to save themselves.

The above gives several methods to get across to the PCs which is always a good thing. The players that invested ranks in jump, climb, or balance are going to get to shine in this encounter. Plus it usually breaks down that the Rogue will have balance, a ranger climb, and the barbarian with their high Str and Speed can handle Jump. In this type of encounter a heavy plate wearing character is going to hurt. Personally thats fine as not all challenges should happen on a perfectly flat piece of terrain. Not every encounter can let all players shine and thats fine as long as they can in other encounters. Plus as my players have learned having a ranged weapon is always a good thing to have for such just an encounter.

The DCs I have listed above maybe too high or low based on your players and you can easily adjust them up or down. Just describe the beam as being smaller and the wall as being smoother. Part of this breaks down how you describe this encounter to your players. The fact that a narrow stair case is missing 2 steps is not much of a challenge, but a 10ft wide stair case with a 10 to 15 foot section that collapsed is a much larger challenge to overcome.

Hope this helps.
Rechan
10-26-07, 08:54 PM Thanks, ShadowChemosh.

I could make it a 5' wide staircase with a 10ft gap - namely because the staircase is an old back stair up to the top floor of a rotted, abandoned temple, not a sturdy thing.

But that's really helpful. And, looking at my PCs character sheets, the only person with Jump or Climb worth a damn is the barbarian. Who will probably be the one to set off the trap, launching himself ahead of the others.

With the enemy spellcaster at the top throwing down an area effect that causes -3 to various things (attack, saving throws, and checks), this should get REAL INTERESTING. :D
Phrennzy
10-26-07, 09:17 PM Yeah, I must have missed the part about it only being two stairs long. I imagined a whole 10' section collapsing under one PC, rotted from termites or some such.
Rechan
10-26-07, 09:26 PM 10' long section falling out of a 5' wide stair is fine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rechan 10-26-07, 09:37 AM	I am going to have a priest at the top of some real rickety, narrow stairs, firing down at the PCs. The stairs are narrow so that only one PC can go up them at a time. In the middle of the stairs is a trap - two steps collapse, falling onto a crate with metal spikes beneath (pretty much a standard spiked pit trap Cr 2). My question is, how can the PCs get over the pit in the stairs? Would Jump or Climb checks be optimal? Would "You just take two rounds to crawl over it properly" be more appropriate? I want to slow them down, but not completely stop them from going up the stairs.
Phrennzy 10-26-07, 10:12 AM	The hole is more or less in the center of the stairs, and is a rough 10' long section. On either side of the hole is a ledge. How wide the ledge is determines what the balance check is. And remember that you lose Dex to AC when balancing - which also means you can suffer sneak attacks. When describing the stairs collapse, I would mention that a small ledge remains passable on either siide - only the central area has collapsed. A neat idea and a new terrain idea. Don't be suprised if the PCs start asking if they can jump up to the second floor from the first floor, or if they can climb along the banister of the stairwell.
Rechan 10-26-07, 01:27 PM	On either side of the hole is a ledge. How wide the ledge is determines what the balance check is. And remember that you lose Dex to AC when balancing - which also means you can suffer sneak attacks. When describing the stairs collapse, I would mention that a small ledge remains passable on either siide - only the central area has collapsed. Nice idea, thanks. It's amusing that none of the PCs have the Balance skill. :D A neat idea and a new terrain idea. Don't be suprised if the PCs start asking if they can jump up to the second floor from the first floor, or if they can climb along the banister of the stairwell. Yeah, this is what I expected - them to try and jump over the hole, or climb along the outside of the banister and over. Which naturally will give the priest time to peg them. (God I love spiritual weapon). I also have placed crates and barrels at the bottom of the stairs to function as Difficult Terrain - to move past/over it, they'll have to move slower.
1 ton ghost 10-26-07, 02:18 PM	remember, XP awards count for "overcoming a trap" or "defeating a monster" yes, traditionally they are by a rogue busting (Disable Dev) said trap or beating down monster 'x', however, to the spoils go the victor, it's just how you get to that point. tricking a monster out of it's lair to get 'random plot hook item' or finding another way around a trap will still net you XP. typically, for traps, you can study the map, try and nagvigate around it, jump/climb/balance, etc. look at it's composition and defeat it w/ mundane means, ex)portculis trap can be wedged open w/ Str and a shield maybe, etc.
Rechan 10-26-07, 02:29 PM	I understand that - I'm just asking what mechanical ways they could overcome the hole. Also, don't you get XP if basically you trigger a trap and take the punishment? I.e. walking into it and taking the 2d6 of damage, but you still get the xp for the trap because, well, you took the punishment and survived.
1 ton ghost 10-26-07, 03:00 PM	yes, most DMs rule that, but i don't. seems wonky. surviving the trap, to me, is it's own reward. i don't reward ignorance or stupidity typically. gluing spike holes boards over a pit trap, Levitate, Fly Stone Shaping closed a scything trap these are all valid ways of overcoming a trap and gettin XP in my book
ShadowChemosh 10-26-07, 03:34 PM	.... The stairs are narrow so that only one PC can go up them at a time. In the middle of the stairs is a trap - two steps collapse,... If its a whole two steps this should have almost no impact on getting across the hole. Anyone can easily take stairs 3 at a time so missing two steps would barely count as difficult terrain for a medium sized creature. Maybe it could be difficult terrain for a small sized creature. If its a standard set of stairs its going to have a railing so any balance check would gain gain a +7 bonus if they use just one hand to brace with and +10 if using both hands. Assuming one side of the stair case is against a wall then they could use the wall to 'body brace' for +5 bonus. These are listed in Stormwrack pg84 under the Balance Skill. On top of all this if its just the stairs and the underlying frame work is in place(assuming must be if players are suppose to get by) then a person can simply walk across by using both sides of the frame. While a balance check would be in order(maybe) it couldn't be higher than DC5 and as long as the hand rail is still their then they get +7 making it a guaranteed success. Otherwise one could simply jump across the hole which if only two steps is about 2ft. So even without a 20ft move before the hole it would be a DC4 jump check and that should be easy to make it across even for those in heavy armor. Assuming the wall is again right against the stairs a Climb check can be used to climb horizontally across the wall. A average worked wall is a DC15 and would require about 20ft worth of the characters movement. Hope this helps.
Rechan 10-26-07, 03:39 PM	Thanks Shadow. Wow, that looks like it would be incredibly easy and not slow them down At All. Do you have any suggestions on how to slow them down/make it Harder, without completely halting them/making it Too Difficult to get up there?
kymaera 10-26-07, 04:04 PM	Have a trap that does the equivalent of a grease spell on the stairs.
ShadowChemosh 10-26-07, 07:08 PM	Have a trap that does the equivalent of a grease spell on the stairs. This is a nice straight forward method of doing what you wish. Do you have any suggestions on how to slow them down/make it Harder, without completely halting them/making it Too Difficult to get up there? If I was doing this I would increase the stair case to 10ft wide and have a 10ft section collapse instead of just a few steps. I would describe the side with the wall as being climbable with lots of hand holds left over from the frame work collapse. I would tell the players the section next to the wall requires climb checks as there is not enough places left to even balance across. I would set the Climb DC around 10 which is a little lower than a standard wall due to the extra hand holds. Climb changes each square to cost 20ft of movement per square so its 40ft of movement to climb across the gap. On the side away from the wall I would describe that only the frame work beam was left and that it was about 9 inches wide with no hand holds. Plus sense the stair case is now 10ft wide they can't even body brace against the other wall. A 9” beam requires a DC10 Balance check and each square costs 10ft of movement so getting across requires 20ft of movement. Unless the character has 5 ranks in balance the PC is flat footed during the time he is balancing across. Keep in mind that if the PC does fail by 5 or more that he falls, but I would use the rules under climb and give a DC15 Reflex Save for him to grab the beam as he falls. Then next round he will need a DC15 Climb Check to pull himself back up. If a character wished to Jump across and they moved 20ft before the jump the DC would be 10. If they tried without a running start then it would be a DC20. This is the quickest method to get across. Like above if the player misses the DC by 5 he misses and falls and should be given a DC15 Reflex to save themselves. The above gives several methods to get across to the PCs which is always a good thing. The players that invested ranks in jump, climb, or balance are going to get to shine in this encounter. Plus it usually breaks down that the Rogue will have balance, a ranger climb, and the barbarian with their high Str and Speed can handle Jump. In this type of encounter a heavy plate wearing character is going to hurt. Personally thats fine as not all challenges should happen on a perfectly flat piece of terrain. Not every encounter can let all players shine and thats fine as long as they can in other encounters. Plus as my players have learned having a ranged weapon is always a good thing to have for such just an encounter. The DCs I have listed above maybe too high or low based on your players and you can easily adjust them up or down. Just describe the beam as being smaller and the wall as being smoother. Part of this breaks down how you describe this encounter to your players. The fact that a narrow stair case is missing 2 steps is not much of a challenge, but a 10ft wide stair case with a 10 to 15 foot section that collapsed is a much larger challenge to overcome. Hope this helps.
Rechan 10-26-07, 08:54 PM	Thanks, ShadowChemosh. I could make it a 5' wide staircase with a 10ft gap - namely because the staircase is an old back stair up to the top floor of a rotted, abandoned temple, not a sturdy thing. But that's really helpful. And, looking at my PCs character sheets, the only person with Jump or Climb worth a damn is the barbarian. Who will probably be the one to set off the trap, launching himself ahead of the others. With the enemy spellcaster at the top throwing down an area effect that causes -3 to various things (attack, saving throws, and checks), this should get REAL INTERESTING. :D
Phrennzy 10-26-07, 09:17 PM	Yeah, I must have missed the part about it only being two stairs long. I imagined a whole 10' section collapsing under one PC, rotted from termites or some such.
Rechan 10-26-07, 09:26 PM	10' long section falling out of a 5' wide stair is fine.