Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Ditto 03-02-07, 01:25 PM	I was thinking of houseruling a bit in the way of keen, improved critical, and similar feats/abilities. I was hoping to get some opinions of some of you on the downsides of what I'm thinking of ... (I'd rather work the "kinks" out earlier than trip over them mid-game and go "oh C**P"!!! ) In a nutshell: - allow keen, improved Critical, etc. to stack. - same source - of course - does not stack as per the normal rules (ie two castings of "Keen Edge" don't stack ...) The abilities, however, change. Each one, rather than doubling the threat-range, merely increases it by 1 point. So: Scimitar: Threat: 18-20 Keen Scimitar: Threat: 17-20 Improved Critical wielding a Scimitar: 17-20 Improved Critical wielding a Keen Scimitar: 16-20 ... So yeah .. you could get some pretty good threat ranges .. but only if you invest a lot into it ... (ie feats, magical bonuses etc.) Yes, I know that'll "weaken" these feats/abilities a bit ... but by allowing them to stack, I think that makes them worthwhile again. I may consider changing the Spell: Keen Edge - to 2nd level ... (opinions?) I'm kind of considered, however, about the effect on a 20/x4 weapon? It's basically unaffected by this, except that it can stack. I think they originally added the rule that these don't stack in order to "nerf" the 18-20 threat range, though ... so I'm not sure it's a problem. But if I lowered Keen Edge to 2nd level, would that introduce a problem? I'm not sure .. Thanks for the opinions .... :tiphat:
primemover003 03-02-07, 02:33 PM	Allowing Keen and Improved Crit to stack, like they did in 3.0 really doesn't break anything. In fact some of the designers have written articles showing mathmatically they make the higher threat range weapons comprable to their counterparts (rapier and longsword, falchion and greatsword). I allow it to stack in my campaigns and don't find it too overpowered mainly to due to the fact that the larger the threat range the more often it's lower end won't be hits for CR appropriate monsters. Having a rapier threaten on a 12-20 doesn't mean much if 12-17 doesn't hit at all. I'd leave Keen edge where it is.
The_Ditto 03-02-07, 04:18 PM	I'd leave Keen edge where it is. .. that is under the assumption that I've changed Keen Edge to just increase the threat range by 1 pt? not doubling? right?? Or are you saying: "Leave it at 3rd level and leave it doubling threat range". I agree with it as 3rd level if it doubles a threat range .. What about if it just increases a threat range by 1 pt, however? Is it still worth a 3rd level spell? (it still affects the 20/x? weapons the same ...) or is it worth a 2nd (because it nerfs the 18-20/x? weapons)
UAMDB 03-02-07, 04:30 PM	Ok The only items that is helped by this rule change are 20/x weapons. For all others there is either no change or a smaller threat range. Current system= only one...no stacking Your system= ony adds 1 to threat Example: Greataxe 20/3 current system(either feat/spell)19-20/3 Your system (either feat/spell) 19-20/3 Your system(both feat/spell) 18-20/3 Longsword 19-20/2 current system(either feat/spell)17-20/2 Your system (either feat/spell) 18-20/2 Your system(both feat/spell) 17-20/2 Scimitar: Threat: 18-20/2 current system(either feat/spell)15-20/2 Your system (either feat/spell) 17-20/2 Your system(both feat/spell) 16-20/2 The better the weapon is at criting to worst your system is for that item. With the long sword, I would have to have both a feat and a keen item inorder to crit the same as if the system was never changed. If I was in this system i would use 20/3 weapons all the time, cause they just got that much better.
The_Ditto 03-06-07, 08:44 AM	The better the weapon is at criting to worst your system is for that item. With the long sword, I would have to have both a feat and a keen item inorder to crit the same as if the system was never changed. If I was in this system i would use 20/3 weapons all the time, cause they just got that much better. Fair enough .. thanks for the feedback! :tiphat:
Cantankerous 03-06-07, 09:06 AM	We have a house rule in place that also allows for it to stack, but at one less than the original threat range from 20, with a minimum of one. So a longsword weilder with Improved Critical-Longswords and a Keen Longsword crits on an 16-20 and a Improved Critical-Rapier weilder with a Keen Rapier criticals on a 13-20. It has worked fine so far for much the same reason as Prime Mover noted, basicly that for comensurate critters the roll to hit is often higher than that needed to threaten a critical in these situations. Where this has really come up for us is with another Fighter Feat form of Improved criticals that works only for Fighters (much as specialization does) that allows for an advancing of the critical multiplier of the weapon by one. So, our Bard with his Keen rapier and Improved Critical A-Rapiers and Improved Critical B-Rapiers threatens on a 13-20 to do triple damage. This will not work well in a non-RP heavy game. If you let min-maxers get ahold of this it becomes a junk fest as Improved Criticals A&B with a Keen GreatAxe gets disgusting with the 22 Strength Fighter/Barbarian who's stregth jumps to 28 when he's enraged and has also specialized in the weapon. Isshia