Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lastknightleft 03-01-07, 03:13 PM	Okay, i know that SR shouldn't work against summoned creatures or buff spells, but I don't get why the orb spells work, (or for that matter why they're conjuration and not evocation, but then again conjuration hasn't made sense since healing was made a conjuration)
Tarus 03-01-07, 03:39 PM	Well, I haven't read an orb spell in forever but I would assume its because you are not creating magic fire or acid, you are summoning it. For example, if you cast summon monster it brings a monster from some random plane or place and binds it to you. It then attacks, no SR because its not 'magical'. If you cast a fireball you are creating magical fire out of thin air. SR is applied because it is magical. If you cast an Acid Orb you are summoning a bit of acid out of some random plane or place (a lot like scooping up some acid out of an acidic lake) and "throwing" it at the person. The magical part is merely summoning it, once its summoned it is very real and has no magical properties....thus no SR.
Evil DM Mk3 03-01-07, 03:45 PM	yes, they summon balls of acid, fire, electrisity, coldness, loudness or forcines............ Ye, I don't quite understant it either, but that si what is suposed to be going on.
Lord Nedd 03-01-07, 04:03 PM	yes, they summon balls of acid, fire, electrisity, coldness, loudness or forcines............ Ye, I don't quite understant it either, but that si what is suposed to be going on. Forgive the mad rambling... Any summoned attack that does direct damage whether it is an acid arrow, black tentacles, or an elemental orb can't be spell resisted, but can be element resisted if it relies on an element. You conjure it from somewhere in the PMP and throw it at the folks. What are they going to resist? Once the summoning has happened, the object is in fact already hear. This is different than any of the evocations, where you are pulling stuff from out of the PMP and throwing it at folks. Your magic keeps it here in the plane long enough to damage the folks you are trying to hurt. That is big difference (at least it was in previous versions of the game) between evocations and conjurations. Where they came from and whether you can save against them. Typically, conjurations do less damage spell per spell than an evocation, but they have less chance to resist. -LN
primemover003 03-01-07, 08:55 PM	The spells while troublesome are not overpowered in and of themselves. I think the overpowering aspect of them comes when the caster has the option of changing up which orb they use. Spontaneous casters combined with Orbs are hard to plan an encounter for, especially Warmages. In a given encounter if a creature is resistant or immune to a given energy type a Spontaneous caster can switch to something else that works. However this isn't all bad. If you have a Caster that loves these spells you need to design your encounters a little differently. Cover (hard or soft), concealment, multiple targets, Mirror Image... Using these can soften the usefulness of direct damage energy spells. Even creatures without magic can strike up a Smokestick (goblins and Kobolds should always have cheap alchemical items) to provide some concealment, especially if they're massing to attack (a standard tactic for weaker humanoids). Granted they're ripe for an area effect but I digress. Against Golems and especially Outsiders with High SR you need to make sure they "Geek the Mage first." I hate it when an encounter traditionally designed for Fighters to shine is trumped by no SR Conjurations. Unfortunately it's really hard to plan a Golem encounter if you have a spontaneous caster with no SR spells handy.
runestar 03-02-07, 02:02 AM	The idea behind orb of acid is that you are using magic to summon nonmagical acid, then hurling this glob of non-magical acid at a foe. Sr would thus no more apply against it than it would against an alchemist fire or acid flask attack. And somehow, this analogy is supposed to extend to the other elements as well....;)
FrostHammer 03-02-07, 02:06 AM	Orb of Sonic and Force should be evocation imo.
Evil DM Mk3 03-02-07, 04:29 AM	My point was that I have great difficulty imagining how you can summon a ball of coldness, let alone one of sonic or force. I undertand the mechanics but am perpelxed by their aplication. The worst offender is force which I have onyl ever been able to explain to my players and manipulating momentum. Every time the orb spells come up I have to answer the question, how do you summon momentum. What makes it worse is that one is a robotosist, one an enginer and one a physisits (all Univeristy students) so they know about real life mementum ect. It is one of the reasons our suspention of idsbeleaf is so easy, our world works as reality with magic as a tweak. They can acept that magic can create an explosion of fire, but not a stable, as one of them put it, mirco-sun, that requires no magic at all to remain real. In my game they don't bypass SR, but we did make them vulnerable to Anti-magic.
AntiDjinn 03-02-07, 04:37 AM	SR applies vs. magic effects that target you. The orbs are called into existence with magic, but thereafter are just objects to be thrown. In any case, the spell is not cast on you. Compare it to effects like telekinesis. If someone attempts to pick you up and throw you with TK then you check SR. If, instead, they lift a boulder over your head and drop it then you don't check SR; you are not the target of the effect, the boulder is, and the spell isn't harming you, gravity is.
runestar 03-02-07, 04:55 AM	My point was that I have great difficulty imagining how you can summon a ball of coldness, let alone one of sonic or force. If you watch wuxia kungu flicks like stormriders, all will be revealed...:P
Tarus 03-02-07, 09:31 AM	Well...we could write it off as a mistake where someone did orb of acid or fire and then just threw it to other elements without thinking. Here are some possibilities for you: Orb of Cold: Summons a snow ball except instead of frozen water its pulled from a realm with frozen hydrogen or nitrogen. My point is that it is really really cold. Orb of Force: Summons a quantity of dense air in a certain shape causing the natural air to compress and launch. Think of it like a can of compressed air with a sudden puncture in it. Now remove the "can" and replace it with magic. The magic is compressing/holding/releasing the compressed 'air' inside but the air is still non-magical. Orb of Sonic: Summons a loud sound at the point of the casters hand and directed toward the foe. At this point its non-magical sound waves. Sound waves travel.
primemover003 03-02-07, 10:00 AM	The spells are pretty wonky thematically... I agree that cold, force, and sound are not objects or substances. Fire, Acid, and Electricity are a little more feasible though. What happens if you drop an orb of force? Does it go rolling around?
Lord_Tirian 03-02-07, 10:11 AM	Orb of Force: Summons a quantity of dense air in a certain shape causing the natural air to compress and launch. Think of it like a can of compressed air with a sudden puncture in it. Now remove the "can" and replace it with magic. The magic is compressing/holding/releasing the compressed 'air' inside but the air is still non-magical. Orb of Sonic: Summons a loud sound at the point of the casters hand and directed toward the foe. At this point its non-magical sound waves. Sound waves travel. These are thematically the worst offenders. Sonic is hard. Especially maintaining the orbform. Sound waves travel - and usually radially. And force is not force as in "push". It is magical force, like in Magic Missile or Wall of Force. Pure magical energy. If it'd be "push-you-with-air-pressure"-force, it'd be bludgeoning or sonic damage.
ZiggZagg 03-02-07, 10:22 AM	You can almost think of Orb of Force as the attacks used in the movie The Covenant. There, they conjure up balls of raw energy or force and hurl them at each other...though I still don't much care for the orb spells, that is one way to look at it. Now that I think of it, I am either going to houserule that Sonic Orb is evocation...or just get rid of it:D Quoth the DM, Nevermore
Illithid_Tentacles 03-02-07, 10:29 AM	They're Conjuration instead of Evocatioin, and bypass SR, because the person who wrote them had his head up his ass.
lastknightleft 03-02-07, 03:19 PM	I don't think they're sensical at all, because yes I can see a person summoning fire or ice even acid. But the problem is that summoning is just supposed to plonk something into the PMP so once they're summoned how do they keep shape? I mean if orb of fire is a conjuration then flaming sphere should be one too, but flaming sphere is an evoc:censored:ingcation. so how is an orb of fire which is a one round shot a conjuration (by the way, this post has nothing to do with them being overpowered, I don't think they are nor do I want a discussion or argument as to whether or not they are)
Movanic 03-02-07, 04:50 PM	I just love it when you can magically summon "un-magical" magical forces :p A point of view that (while it still hurts) hurts a bit less is to view these spells (conjuration) as creating a "Supernatural effect" and not a "Spell effect" - like a fireball is resisted, but dragon fire is not. My 2cp
runestar 03-03-07, 09:20 AM	They're Conjuration instead of Evocatioin, and bypass SR, because the person who wrote them had his head up his ass. In theory, this means that if I made charm monster a transmutation spell, it would lose its mind-affecting descriptor and thus bypass mindblank and immunities...:cool:
lastknightleft 03-03-07, 08:00 PM	Exactly, I'm not saying using conjuration to summon something other than monsters is bad, just saying that make it make sense, rather than orb of acid, what about acid pool? a five foot space becomes a pool of acid dealing X damage like the orb. Instead of orb of fire, magma pool lesser and greater. Then hey that makes f-ing sense instead of Oh its a ball of real fire that somehow (magically) retains shape once summoned and can be thrown. At least they could have made it a dual school spell, introduce an interesting concept instead of a spell that makes no sense, Orbs could have been conj/evoc. Then they would have made sense the conj makes it bypass, the evoc makes it keep it's unnatural form.
lastknightleft 03-03-07, 08:01 PM	I think I'll make those spells and post them in the spells forum, make it a post for alternate versions of spells that make no sense. And I'll start with the orbs making pools and blasts that allow reflex saves instead of ranged touches.
runestar 03-04-07, 01:25 AM	I think I'll make those spells and post them in the spells forum, make it a post for alternate versions of spells that make no sense. And I'll start with the orbs making pools and blasts that allow reflex saves instead of ranged touches. Actually, if you just made them evocation, and allowed sr back again, that would solve everything. Evocation already has too many reflex save spells, I think it could use some diversification.:)
lastknightleft 03-06-07, 05:11 PM	Well I was going to keep orbs as evoc with SR and then create Conj with ref saves. I thought that way evoc gets it diversification and conj gets some cool new tricks up its sleeves. I think the whole problem came from the designers seeing acid splash (conj) and saying why not make a stronger version of this, forgetting that splashing someone with acid can make physical sense, but throwing a ball of acid that retains shape despite having no container just doesn't
Marcus Majarra 03-07-07, 01:34 AM	I do believe the choices for school and spell resistance application are arbitrarily based on balance issues. The lesser orbs lack serious damage potential at higher levels and still require an attack roll. Against a single target. The greater orbs, while they do a lot more damage and carry an added effect (which is resisted with a save), still only affect a single target. Is it really that much unbalancing to allow for no SR on a single-target damage spell? I mean, the orb spells are on the same level as phantasmal killer, which is simply a save-or-die effect
Evil DM Mk3 03-07-07, 03:33 PM	Is it really that much unbalancing to allow for no SR on a single-target damage spell? I mean, the orb spells are on the same level as phantasmal killer, which is simply a save-or-die effect No, my objection was on logical grounds. I feel they may be slightly better than phantasmal killer as written, seeing as only rogues are likely to fall to one of these save-or-save-or-die effects reliably.
Marcus Majarra 03-08-07, 03:21 AM	Well, if logic's what you want, then simply try to imagine where the energies could be conjured from: Orb of Fire: elemental plane of fire Orb of Cold: elemental plane of water Orb of Acid: elemental plane of earth Orb of Force: ethereal plane Orb of Sound: anywhere loud sounds can originate
The_Ditto 03-08-07, 08:15 AM	Well, if logic's what you want, then simply try to imagine where the energies could be conjured from: Orb of Fire: elemental plane of fire Orb of Cold: elemental plane of water Orb of Acid: elemental plane of earth Orb of Force: ethereal plane Orb of Sound: anywhere loud sounds can originate Logic? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' LOGIC!!! We just want our Orb of Cheese!!!! :mage:
lastknightleft 03-08-07, 10:11 AM	right, i was already assuming where it came from, still doesn't explain how it keeps an orb shape on the PMP
lastknightleft 03-08-07, 10:13 AM	I mean if orb of cold was orb of ice, or even blast of cld where cold air rushes forth from you to the target, but once again reflex saves instead of touch attacks and then the fact that SR doesn't work makes sense
lastknightleft 03-08-07, 10:20 AM	Or even freezing air conjuration components VS casting time 1 standard action range close (25ft+5ft per caster level) duration: instantaneous saving throw ref half you summon frigid air from the depths of space into a five foot square. anyone inside this area takes (whatever orb of colds damage is). A sucsessful save negates half of this damage. a second save must be made (whatever orb of colds save is for)
lastknightleft 03-08-07, 10:22 AM	and orb of cold becomes an evoc with SR, now evoc gets some variety and conj gets some direct damage and it makes sense. by the way, i don't have my books with me, which is why the spell is severely lacking, i'll edit it later when i get a chance
Marcus Majarra 03-08-07, 05:18 PM	Your arguments don't justify changing the school or the application of SR. The energy conjured is condensed into the shape of an orb by the caster, and then hurled at the target. Amusingly, you'll notice that ray spells don't fall under the purview of conjurations, since you're usually evoking some kind of magical energy between yourself and the target.
lastknightleft 03-08-07, 06:15 PM	allright you want me to argue with a point based off of what you say fine, conjuration isn't supposed to alter structure, it brings something from point A to point B. In order to alter the structure, i.e. condense the form of what you've summoned into a sphere and hurl it at a foe, you would need transmutation. Once again going back to my point of duel school spells. If you want to create a sphere of fire on the other hand much like, oh, I don't know, the afformentioned flaming sphere, you need evocation. The fact that SR once again plays a role is merely an effect of the change, not the intent. Sorry, i'm one of those gamers that wants his make believe to somewhat interact with a sense of coherence, i won't say realism becuase we are dealing with magic here. But the stated use of the schools of magic should apply to all the spells in the school.
lastknightleft 03-08-07, 06:17 PM	this isn't a point of balance or fairness, merely a point of coherence.:twocents:
redraven 03-09-07, 12:28 AM	Simply put, no, they make no sense whatsoever. The only possible explanation is that they were made Conjuration spells so that they could bypass SR in ways Evocation spells cannot by definition. There is no logic in them whatsoever other than this. These Orbs are not nonmagical. Globes of Invulnerability block their passage as do Antimagic Fields (since an AMF blocks Line of Effect). Magic still propels the Orbs through the air, maintain their shape, allow them to be fired without range increments, and so on. If you hurled a bucket of acid off a cliff, it would disperse and eventually land 100 ft later at the bottom. Orb of Acid? It winks out of existence at the end of its range. As for their "limitations," most are irrelevant. Single target? If the party is facing an encounter of their CR, they are doing so either against a single monster or multiple weaker ones - a wizard with an Orb spell and an Area Effect spell retains the advantage either way. The Orb spells, especially Orb of Force which has no weaknesses beyond being capped at 10d6 instead of 15d6 (but having a longer range and no possible resistances), are extremely good in nearly any combat situation.
Marcus Majarra 03-09-07, 01:35 AM	How are the spells not coherent? All of them are orbs. They all belong to the same school. They scale in the same fashion. They are resisted to in similar ways. If anything, they are coherent with one another. The fact that no other spell produces a similar effect makes them completely coherent. So why is there a point in comparing them to different magic effects as a point of coherence? How is greater invisibility coherent with ice storm? And if you think the difference is too vast to make a worthwhile comparison, just take two spells from the same school: how is greater invisibility coherent with phantasmal killer?
lastknightleft 03-09-07, 10:18 AM	because both work off of visual accuity, a character has to be able to see to be affected by them, you don't have a spell from the illusion school being able to teleport something, or evocation to alter your body into something new, or necromancy to tell me what's going to happen a day from now, I'm not arguing that the orb spells aren't coherant as orbs, I'm arguing that conjuration casting them is incoherent.
lastknightleft 03-09-07, 10:21 AM	or if you want to argue with illusion spells that create sound and smell as well, then the fact that illusions never create something real. the closest you get is the semi-real composed of shadow etc. spells, but I would be posting on the nonsensical nature of an illusion spell that when the creature affected failed their save the illusion becomes a completely real creation saying that that would need conjuration or evocation to be possible.
Marcus Majarra 03-09-07, 02:45 PM	Why is not coherent that they are cast as conjurations? Here's the first paragraph from the Conjuration description, in the Complete Mage: A conjuration spell creates or summons a real object or creature. The effect could appear in the spellcaster's hand, arrive from another plane of existence, or take shape in front of her. Emphasis mine. The energies summoned take the shape of an orb (a real object) in front of the conjurer, at which point the conjurer hurls the orb at the target. How is this not coherent?
lastknightleft 03-09-07, 03:12 PM	Very well, I'll take that as given, good point, now how does it retain shape, ever tried to hurl a bucket of water thirty feet, let alone fire or cold?
Marcus Majarra 03-09-07, 03:31 PM	That's subject to interpretation. The simplest one would be to assume the energies are contained by a magical barrier. This is coherent with the fact that no SR applies, since all this barrier would do upon impact would be to shatter harmlessly, thus allowing the conjured energies to affect the target normally.
lastknightleft 03-09-07, 03:43 PM	allright, so now we are merely interpreting different things and that is fine, now howsabout taking a whack at healing as conjuration?
lastknightleft 03-09-07, 03:44 PM	and out of curiosity what is an uncon?
Marcus Majarra 03-10-07, 04:42 PM	Healing as conjuration is basically summoning energies from the positive energy plane (or any equivalent, such as Irian, the Eternal Day), and shaping them into the form of whatever has been damaged. And UnCon stands for Unconventional Convention. It's an annual online convention held one these boards. I got my label for winning a party optimization contest.