Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rillek_Denar 08-10-07, 08:06 PM	I'm designing an enemy for my players to face, and I need some advice on his attacks. Not sure about the race yet, but I'm definitely putting in levels of Soul Eater (BoVD). My question is this: if my creature's base attack gives it multiple strikes, can I just use them all as touch attacks, to bestow several negative levels?
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-10-07, 08:09 PM	No sir, it's one per round.Supernatural Abilities (Su) Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is: 10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).The Soul Eater's Energy Drain is a Supernatural ability and does not specify its action type, therefore it's a standard action to use. You can't even incorporate it into a full attack with other, non-draining attacks.
Rillek_Denar 08-10-07, 08:14 PM	I understand your point, but if you look closely at the prestige class, all it takes is a touch to bestow the negative level. Wouldn't, for instance, a monk/soul eater who hit his opponent three times bestow three negative levels?
Marcus Majarra 08-12-07, 07:28 PM	I understand your point, but if you look closely at the prestige class, all it takes is a touch to bestow the negative level. Wouldn't, for instance, a monk/soul eater who hit his opponent three times bestow three negative levels? Again, this is incorrect. Shaggy_Shaggs is correct in his statement. You shouldn't start assuming that anything that requires a touch can be a substitute for any of your attacks. For example, the scorching ray spell states that you make one ranged touch attack per ray and that you can fire one ray, plus one ray per every four levels above 3rd (maximum three rays). However, the spell doesn't indicate what kind of an action it is to fire these rays. As such, these rays are fired as part of the action they belong to: casting the scorching ray spell. Since the Soul Eater's ability doesn't stipulate what kind of an action is needed to use the ability (just the means of delivery), you have to default to that of Supernatural Abilities: a standard action.
Rillek_Denar 08-12-07, 10:13 PM	Again, this is incorrect. Shaggy_Shaggs is correct in his statement. You shouldn't start assuming that anything that requires a touch can be a substitute for any of your attacks. For example, the scorching ray spell states that you make one ranged touch attack per ray and that you can fire one ray, plus one ray per every four levels above 3rd (maximum three rays). However, the spell doesn't indicate what kind of an action it is to fire these rays. As such, these rays are fired as part of the action they belong to: casting the scorching ray spell. Since the Soul Eater's ability doesn't stipulate what kind of an action is needed to use the ability (just the means of delivery), you have to default to that of Supernatural Abilities: a standard action. All right, I'd say the consensus is firm. BUT, I think my OP is misstated a little, since the real underlying question for me is: Can you substitute a touch attack for a regular attack?
Marcus Majarra 08-12-07, 10:30 PM	Actually, the answer is simpler: a touch attack is merely a normal attack that ignores armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses to AC. Thus, whenever your attack would be hitting this AC but not the character's full AC, you'd be touching your target. Keep in mind, however, that merely touching the target is not the prerequisite for the Soul Eater's energy drain ability. Touching the target is merely the means of delivery. Using the ability itself remains a standard action.
Pegasos989 08-13-07, 03:49 AM	Actually, the answer is simpler: a touch attack is merely a normal attack that ignores armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses to AC. Thus, whenever your attack would be hitting this AC but not the character's full AC, you'd be touching your target. Keep in mind, however, that merely touching the target is not the prerequisite for the Soul Eater's energy drain ability. Touching the target is merely the means of delivery. Using the ability itself remains a standard action. Are you certain of this? Let's assume theoretical situation of having halfling with a heavy shield and dexterity 14. His AC is 15 (+2 shield, +1 size, +2 dex). Opponent rolls a regular attack of 13. Can he be counted as having touched the halfling? He did hit the touch ac because it doesn't include shield. However, some shield special abilities said that the opponent missed because of shield in that situation... Oh, right. So he hit the shield. So he hit. Damn. I guess you are right. Now... Can touch spells be delivered by touching with a weapon?
PenderGrass 08-13-07, 04:32 AM	Now... Can touch spells be delivered by touching with a weapon? Natural weapons would likely be fine for this tactic in most circumstances. :dragon: ****
BigJohn42 08-13-07, 02:20 PM	Actually, the answer is simpler: a touch attack is merely a normal attack that ignores armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses to AC. Thus, whenever your attack would be hitting this AC but not the character's full AC, you'd be touching your target. Keep in mind, however, that merely touching the target is not the prerequisite for the Soul Eater's energy drain ability. Touching the target is merely the means of delivery. Using the ability itself remains a standard action. If I'm not mistaken (and please correct me if I am), the Soul Eater could spend a standard action (perhaps during the monologing or smack-talking pre-combat) to charge this attack. He could then make the first attack in his "full-attack option" as a touch attack. If he connects, the effect of the ability goes off, and still leaves him the remainder of his iterative attacks. If he misses with the touch attack, he would still have more attacks that round which he could use to try to touch with.
Frugal 08-13-07, 02:26 PM	To clarify, the action you're using is use supernatural ability, which is a standard action (unless otherwise stated). You then look at your supernatural ability in question and check the way it's resolved (a melee touch attack). The mistake you're making is seeing that the delivery mechanism is a melee touch attack and then assume that you can make this with any attack, you still need to make the action to use the ability. I'm not sure if you're allowed to charge up the ability in advance and then deliver with your first attack in the same way you can with a touch attack spell.
PenderGrass 08-13-07, 04:52 PM	I'm not sure if you're allowed to charge up the ability in advance and then deliver with your first attack in the same way you can with a touch attack spell. There is no reason why you can't charge the ability out-of-combat. Of course, if there is someone there, they would likely get an opportunity to see you trying to charge it up. If they do spot you doing this, it would probably go immediately into initiative rounds - with the ability not charged. :dragon: ****
Marcus Majarra 08-13-07, 05:29 PM	There is no reason why you can't charge the ability out-of-combat. Actually there is: nothing in the ability states you can do so.
PenderGrass 08-13-07, 06:47 PM	Actually there is: nothing in the ability states you can do so. Nothing in the ability says that it works on the Prime Material plane, either. So, in your game, I would imagine you deny its use on the Prime Material plane, right? You are speaking crazy talk, Marcus. :dragon: ****
Marcus Majarra 08-13-07, 07:27 PM	Actually, I'm not. You can't start assuming that because something isn't stated, it's a possibility. The scorching ray spell doesn't state that you can't charge the rays to fire them later. Does this mean that you can? Of course not. The ability will state what you can do with it. That's it. As for your own statement, the ability makes no reference to the plane on which it is used. As such, planar location ISN'T a factor when determining where you can use energy drain. It works on all planes.
PenderGrass 08-13-07, 07:41 PM	Actually, I'm not. You can't start assuming that because something isn't stated, it's a possibility. The scorching ray spell doesn't state that you can't charge the rays to fire them later. Does this mean that you can? Of course not. The ability will state what you can do with it. That's it. As for your own statement, the ability makes no reference to the plane on which it is used. As such, planar location ISN'T a factor when determining where you can use energy drain. It works on all planes. Scorching ray has no delay or holding capability, while most touch spells do have a delay capability - and I definitely do not recall any sort of combat-only limitation on this ability (this includes charging up the touch ability, combat ending and still having it charged in your touch). Plus, if you are saying I can't fire a scorching ray outside of combat, that is inane. :dragon: ****
Marcus Majarra 08-13-07, 08:23 PM	Scorching ray has no delay or holding capability, while most touch spells do have a delay capability - and I definitely do not recall any sort of combat-only limitation on this ability (this includes charging up the touch ability, combat ending and still having it charged in your touch). Plus, if you are saying I can't fire a scorching ray outside of combat, that is inane. The Soul Eater's ability is not a touch spell. Not all abilities resolved by touch follow the rules for touch spells. When this is the case, it will be explicitly stated as such.
Anathema 08-14-07, 02:02 AM	Nothing in the ability says that it works on the Prime Material plane, either. The rules don't say that I can't stand on my head and wield my sword with my feet, either.
Pegasos989 08-14-07, 02:54 AM	The rules don't say that I can't stand on my head and wield my sword with my feet, either. I... whoa. That would be awesome rival for all those blind monk/fighter with two shields...
Anathema 08-14-07, 03:03 AM	I... whoa. That would be awesome rival for all those blind monk/fighter with two shields... We're halfway to our very own wuxia movie! :D
Frugal 08-14-07, 07:52 AM	There is no reason why you can't charge the ability out-of-combat. Of course, if there is someone there, they would likely get an opportunity to see you trying to charge it up. If they do spot you doing this, it would probably go immediately into initiative rounds - with the ability not charged. :dragon: **** I could be wrong, but I thought the rules for charging up was in Complete Arcane (away from books so I can't check) and only related to touch spells, this is a supernatural ability not a spell. It's not even a spell-like ability.
weasel0 08-14-07, 04:19 PM	Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell. Discharge: Occasionally a spells lasts for a set duration or until triggered or discharged. But then again, this is a supernatural. But there are the rules for touch spells. Continue arguing.
Frugal 08-14-07, 07:06 PM	But then again, this is a supernatural. But there are the rules for touch spells. Continue arguing. Right, I knew the rules existed, but I was away from my books before and didn't have a chance to look them up. As stated though, those are for spells and we're dealing with a supernatural ability, not even a spell-like ability so I'd say those rules don't apply.
weasel0 08-14-07, 08:47 PM	Supernatural Abilities These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic, and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See the table below for a summary of the types of special abilities.Supernatural Abilities: Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the abilityÂ’s description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.I'd just like to say that maybe, IMHO, since Supernatural attacks are discribed in the same area's as Spell-like, that the only differences between them are the ones provided by the descriptions. As Spell-like abilities that use touch-spell spell descriptions, and act just as the spell description(unless noted otherwise in the spell-like's description), so too should Supernatural abilities that act like touch-spells should act as Spell-like, should act like the spell(except for what is explicitly noted as differences:IE-SR, dispell, and countering). So unless otherwise stated in an ability's description(I.E.-stunning fist, smite, which explicitly stipulate a failed attempt is a wasted attempt), you can indefinetly hold a charge for a Supernatural ability.
Anathema 08-15-07, 12:38 AM	But supernatural abilities and spell-like abilities are different. If it acts like a spell then it's spell-like; if it is still magical but doesn't act like a spell then it's not spell-like, it's supernatural. We should never judge the rules by what they don't say, otherwise you will fall to my mighty foot-sword.
Tedronai 08-15-07, 02:04 AM	The rules for holding a charge are stated as applying to spells with a range of touch. They make no mention of supernatural abilities. If something is stated specifically in one case as possible, then it is generally safe to assume that it would be stated specifically as possible in any other case in which it were possible unless that previous statement clearly encapsulates both cases, or is included as an example of what can be done using some other capability. Rules governing supernatural abilities make no mention of the ability to hold a charge of an effect with a range of touch, nor can supernatural abilities be described as 'spells', and the rules governing touch spells are clearly not mere examples as they themselves include examples. That capability does not apply to supernatural abilities.
PenderGrass 08-15-07, 02:24 AM	From the MM, page 315: Supernatural abilities are magical.... Since all of magic in D&D is based on the same type of magical "physics" and since the descriptions are always centered on how they differ from other magic (i.e., not subject to SR, can't be disspelled, etc.), it is easy to see that they operate in a similar fashion to all other magic. Now, in the case of "holding" a touch attack in this circumstance - there really is no advantage gained, as it still requires a touch attack roll to use it (which, for those of you keeping score, is still a standard action). Technically speaking, it is fine for a DM to allow a soul eater to prep his infamous touch attack outside of combat rounds. Why? 1. It gives no real advantage to the soul eater as he still needs to use a standard action to use it. 2. It looks cool to see a soul eater walk out of the gloom with a miasma of sickly green energy wafting from his hand. 3. No real advantage is gained by allowing it to happen. :dragon: ****
Frugal 08-15-07, 08:05 AM	Now, in the case of "holding" a touch attack in this circumstance - there really is no advantage gained, as it still requires a touch attack roll to use it (which, for those of you keeping score, is still a standard action). Technically speaking, it is fine for a DM to allow a soul eater to prep his infamous touch attack outside of combat rounds. Why? 1. It gives no real advantage to the soul eater as he still needs to use a standard action to use it. 2. It looks cool to see a soul eater walk out of the gloom with a miasma of sickly green energy wafting from his hand. 3. No real advantage is gained by allowing it to happen. :dragon: **** No, the advantage claimed would be to use a standard action to charge the ability and then discharge it as part of the first attack (that hits) in a full attack action. I'd argue that while SU abilities are magical that the rules on charging are explicitly for touch spells and refer to spells with a range of touch. Is the ability a spell? No, therefore it also can't be governed by specific rules for touch spells. Does the ability have a range of touch? No, it's a special touch attack but that's not the same thing as a spell with the range of touch. Therefore, while a SU ability might be magical and governed by the general rules for magic (except where noted), it's not a touch spell and not governed by those specific rules.
PenderGrass 08-15-07, 11:33 AM	No, the advantage claimed would be to use a standard action to charge the ability and then discharge it as part of the first attack (that hits) in a full attack action. Then you would be incorrect it allowing it to do so. :dragon: ****
Frugal 08-15-07, 12:23 PM	Then you would be incorrect it allowing it to do so. :dragon: **** Yes, but that's what my point was, it doesn't appear to follow the rules for touch spells that allow the spell to be "charged" in advance and then discharged by touching the target later, which can be done as part of a full attack (using an unarmed strike or natural weapon).
BigJohn42 08-15-07, 12:35 PM	But supernatural abilities and spell-like abilities are different. If it acts like a spell then it's spell-like; if it is still magical but doesn't act like a spell then it's not spell-like, it's supernatural. So how would you rule a situation where a character tries to use this ability, but misses on the touch-attack? It doesn't implicitly state that the character loses the ability, so would it remain charged, like a touch-ranged spell? ... but doing that would allow the character to make that pesky full-attack action next round.
Frugal 08-15-07, 12:42 PM	So how would you rule a situation where a character tries to use this ability, but misses on the touch-attack? It doesn't implicitly state that the character loses the ability, so would it remain charged, like a touch-ranged spell? ... but doing that would allow the character to make that pesky full-attack action next round. I don't see it as a spell at all, I see it as something where he touches the target and draws the life out of him, but that's all fluff. But crunch-wise, it doesn't appear to be governed by the rules for touch spells so I'd say you don't "charge" or hold a charge the way you do with a touch spell, it's simply a standard action that uses a touch attack.
PenderGrass 08-15-07, 12:44 PM	Yes, but that's what my point was, it doesn't appear to follow the rules for touch spells that allow the spell to be "charged" in advance and then discharged by touching the target later, which can be done as part of a full attack (using an unarmed strike or natural weapon). No. You are changing how the ability works. It is still a supernatural ability that requires a standard action to use. Just because it can be charged and held, that doesn't mean that it can be used more than the standard action as per all supernatural abilities (unless otherwise specified by the ability description). If you wish to complicate it more, that is your choice - but it is incorrect. :dragon: ****
PenderGrass 08-15-07, 01:00 PM	So how would you rule a situation where a character tries to use this ability, but misses on the touch-attack? It doesn't implicitly state that the character loses the ability, so would it remain charged, like a touch-ranged spell? ... but doing that would allow the character to make that pesky full-attack action next round. Just because it remains "charged" doesn't change the basic mechanics of the ability. It still requires a standard action to "discharge." Allowing it to remain charged is more for a cinematic effect that allows the players to visualize their doom better. :dragon: ****
Frugal 08-15-07, 01:12 PM	No. You are changing how the ability works. It is still a supernatural ability that requires a standard action to use. Just because it can be charged and held, that doesn't mean that it can be used more than the standard action as per all supernatural abilities (unless otherwise specified by the ability description). If you wish to complicate it more, that is your choice - but it is incorrect. :dragon: **** What? Maybe I'm missing something here but what's the point of saying you can charge and hold the charge if you still have to use a standard action to discharge the ability? The whole point of charging and holding the charge is so that you can discharge it as part of a full attack (with a natural attack or unarmed attack, or a weapon with the proper feats), well that and not provoking an AoO. Being a supernatural ability there's no AoO provoked and if it still needs a standard action to discharge then why hold a charge? But all of this is really moot, all the rules for holding a charge are related to touch spells, a supernatural ability is not a touch spell so not governed by those rules. Or, put yet another way, supernatural abilities are magical but that doesn't mean they're spells, all spells are magic but not all magic is spells. For instance, a +2 keen longsword is magical but that doesn't make it a spell.
Frugal 08-15-07, 01:27 PM	Allowing it to remain charged is more for a cinematic effect that allows the players to visualize their doom better. Ah, okay, well if you just want fluff that's fine, style points are style points. But don't confuse fluff with crunch, the rules on holding a charge are very specific and have certain mechanical effects that what you're suggesting doesn't include. So yes, maybe his hand still glows and he glowers angrily at the PCs but referring to it as holding the charge does raise the issue of confusing it with the rules for touch spells of the same name.
BigJohn42 08-15-07, 01:28 PM	Just because it remains "charged" doesn't change the basic mechanics of the ability. It still requires a standard action to "discharge." Allowing it to remain charged is more for a cinematic effect that allows the players to visualize their doom better. :dragon: **** I don't want to start getting into flame-territory, but I need a breakdown on how you feel the logic here works. Here's how I see it. - BBEG activates supernatural ability, hand glows green. - BBEG, as part of that same action, gets a touch-attack to deliver the ability - BBEG misses touch attack. - BBEG's hand is still glowing green. Now, say (for sake of argument) that BBEG forgets about the ability, and wastes the rest of the party without physically touching anyone. - BBEG sits down in his chair, and picks up his kitten, Fluffy. - BBEG has now touched something that can be a target of this ability. - Fluffy dies. Again, this is how I see it. If you don't see the rules the same way, then please answer me this. What happens to the ability after the BBEG misses the touch attack? From what I can see, there are three choices: 1. It remains charged in his hand. 2. It vanishes, unusued. 3. It was never activated to begin with. Of these, I only see #1 fitting, both thematically and rules-wise. If it vanished, unused, then it would specify that, much like Smite Evil. If it was never activated to begin with, then it shouldn't be able to activate until a touch attack is successful, and then triggered. Like I said, I don't want a flamewar... I just want to understand the logic you're using.
Anathema 08-15-07, 01:45 PM	So how would you rule a situation where a character tries to use this ability, but misses on the touch-attack? It doesn't implicitly state that the character loses the ability, so would it remain charged, like a touch-ranged spell? The thing is you don't 'lose' a supernatural attack just by missing. Most supernatural abilities do not have a limited use per day, and the ones that do specifically state that missing your attack wastes the charge. The thing with holding a charge on spells is there so that the caster doesn't waste a spell by missing an attack roll with their low BAB and likely low STR. There is a potential for real loss with a spell caster is present if there is not a 'hold the charge' mechanic, which is why it was introduced. Supernatural attacks, for the most part, have no loss associated with missing; if they miss, they can just try again the next round. (..and those that do are most often present on a class that can reliably connect with an attack; monk, paladin..) The precedent for supernatural attacks is that they are expended when you attempt it. Supernatural attacks often do not have a limit on the number of times per day you can use it (especially for enemies), such as the Soul Eater's Energy Drain attack, and thus missing would cause no detriment to the user. Missing one attack doesn't prevent them from using it again the next round already, a 'hold the charge' mechanic is largely redundant at that point. Now, I don't necessarily agree with PenderGrass' interpretation; but as long as each attempt uses a standard action, then the point is really moot, as there's no mechanical difference.
PenderGrass 08-15-07, 01:55 PM	Ah, okay, well if you just want fluff that's fine, style points are style points. But don't confuse fluff with crunch, the rules on holding a charge are very specific and have certain mechanical effects that what you're suggesting doesn't include. So yes, maybe his hand still glows and he glowers angrily at the PCs but referring to it as holding the charge does raise the issue of confusing it with the rules for touch spells of the same name. Sorry. The rules may be very specific about how a spell or spell-like touch ability can be held, but there are none specifically for a supernatural ability (as so many people have pointed out). Therefore, regardless of being held or not, the ability must be seen as still operating in the same fashion as a supernatural ability. If you refer back through my posts, I never stated that it would operate the same as a touch spell. I merely stated that I see no real problem with allowing a soul eater to charge the ability prior to combat. It doesn't change it into a touch spell. The ability is still a supernatural ability and it still requires a standard action to use. :dragon: ****
BigJohn42 08-15-07, 02:36 PM	Supernatural attacks often do not have a limit on the number of times per day you can use it (especially for enemies), such as the Soul Eater's Energy Drain attack, and thus missing would cause no detriment to the user. Missing one attack doesn't prevent them from using it again the next round already, a 'hold the charge' mechanic is largely redundant at that point. I'm away from books right now, so I don't actually know. Is this ability unlimited uses? If so, then I guess it really doens't matter, except as a mental exercise. I wasn't specifically targeting you with my comment, either. If anyone else can explain how that sequence of events makes any sense, other than as how I described it, I'd love to hear it. ... but, then again, I don't see what the big deal with using a good existing mechanic (holding touch-spell attacks) with other, extremely similar mechanics (supernatural abilities). It may not be strict RAW, but I don't see how it's not RAI.
Frugal 08-15-07, 02:49 PM	If you refer back through my posts, I never stated that it would operate the same as a touch spell. I merely stated that I see no real problem with allowing a soul eater to charge the ability prior to combat. It doesn't change it into a touch spell. The ability is still a supernatural ability and it still requires a standard action to use. Right, I was just pointing out that's where the confusion was coming from, I though you were suggesting that's how it worked because I didn't see why it would matter one way or the other if you can charge it in advance yet gain no mechanical difference from that. If it's just "creepy glowing hand" fluff, then that's a whole other matter.
PenderGrass 08-15-07, 03:11 PM	Right, I was just pointing out that's where the confusion was coming from, I though you were suggesting that's how it worked because I didn't see why it would matter one way or the other if you can charge it in advance yet gain no mechanical difference from that. If it's just "creepy glowing hand" fluff, then that's a whole other matter. Well, I would hardly call it fluff. It is the visible DOOM that crushes the hope in any opponent facing such a foe. :P :D :dragon: ****
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-16-07, 12:54 AM	- BBEG activates supernatural ability, hand glows green. - BBEG, as part of that same action, gets a touch-attack to deliver the ability - BBEG misses touch attack. - BBEG's hand is still glowing green. Now, say (for sake of argument) that BBEG forgets about the ability, and wastes the rest of the party without physically touching anyone. - BBEG sits down in his chair, and picks up his kitten, Fluffy. - BBEG has now touched something that can be a target of this ability. - Fluffy dies.After I got done laughing at this, I realized wight is a specific creature, not a template, which'd cause Fluffy to undergo a rather absurd expansion and reshaping into a vaguely humanoid form as he reanimated from being killed by energy drain - unless the monster classes from Libris Mortis were used. I came up with this. :D Size/Type: Tiny Undead Hit Dice: 4d12 (26 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 19 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 16 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-9 Attack: Claw +7 melee (1d2-4) or slam +7 melee (1-4) Full Attack: slam +7 melee (1-3) and 2 claws +5 melee (1d2-3) and bite +5 melee (1d3-3) Space/Reach: 2.5 ft./0 ft. Special Attacks: Energy drain, create spawn Special Qualities: Darkvision 60', low-light vision, scent, undead traits Saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +6 Abilities: Str 5, Dex 17, Con --, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 11 Skills: Balance +11, Climb +7, Hide +15*, Jump +11, Listen +5, Move Silently +13, Spot +6 Feats: Stealthy, Multiattack, Weapon Finesse(B) Environment: Absentminded soul eater BBEG's lair Organization: One + one absentminded soul eater BBEG Challenge Rating: ?? Treasure: None Alignment: Always lawful evil Advancement: — Fluffy has a +4 racial bonus on Climb and Hide checks and a +8 racial bonus on Jump and Move Silently checks. Fluffy has a +8 racial bonus on Balance checks. He uses his Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8. Create Spawn (Su) Any humanoid slain by Fluffy becomes a wight in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of Fluffy and remain enslaved until his death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life. Energy Drain (Su) Living creatures hit by Fluffy's slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 12 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, Fluffy gains 5 temporary hit points that last for up to 1 hour.That is a commoner-killing machine. I want to turn Fluffy with his wightly hatred of all life loose in a slum and watch the chaos erupt. :plotting:
Myzery78 08-18-07, 06:43 PM	Im going to take a step back and disagree with the initial statements saying the Energy Drain ability requires a standard action to use. The text of the class feature strongly implies that it is not a charged ability, but instead a constantly actice effect. The ability does not say that a touch attack is required to deliver the negative levels, only that the creatures touch delivers them. Also the class requires weapon focus for a natural weapon to enter, making the idea that it cant use its natural weapons for one of its primary class features questionable. Also the monster manual text for Energy Drain says that, "This attack... happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits." which means that unless the soul eaters description of energy drain specifically excludes something that the base ability would normally allow, theres no reason to assume it functions differently. The only limitation from the souleaters description is that it must be delivered by touch, removing the ranged delivery option of Energy Drain.
Marcus Majarra 08-19-07, 03:01 PM	Im going to take a step back and disagree with the initial statements saying the Energy Drain ability requires a standard action to use. The text of the class feature strongly implies that it is not a charged ability, but instead a constantly actice effect. The ability does not say that a touch attack is required to deliver the negative levels, only that the creatures touch delivers them. Also the class requires weapon focus for a natural weapon to enter, making the idea that it cant use its natural weapons for one of its primary class features questionable. Also the monster manual text for Energy Drain says that, "This attack... happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits." which means that unless the soul eaters description of energy drain specifically excludes something that the base ability would normally allow, theres no reason to assume it functions differently. The only limitation from the souleaters description is that it must be delivered by touch, removing the ranged delivery option of Energy Drain. There's nothing in the description that suggests that this ability is always active. The fact that the Soul Eater must touch his target is evidence of this, as otherwise any creature coming in contact with the Soul Eater would take negative levels, including creatures attacking the Soul Eater with unarmed strikes or natural attacks. In any case, disagree as you might, there is no type of action explicitly stated within the description of the ability. As such, you need to default to that of other supernatural abilities: a standard action.
Myzery78 08-19-07, 09:59 PM	Page 308 clearly defines how the Energy Drain(Su) ability functions. Unless you're contending that the Soul Eaters ability by the same name that does the same thing is somehow not this ability, this is how it functions unless the class description specifically states otherwise. The very first line says that it occurs automatically, so they had no need to specify an action type in the BoVD class description because it is already clearly spelled out. Energy Drain(Su): This attack saps a living opponents vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creatures description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount. Unless otherwise specified in the creatures description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour. Any time a soul eater hits with a melee attack, and more specifically a natural weapon attack be it a claw, bite, or simply a melee touch attack it bestows one or two negative levels, depending on the soul eaters level.
Marcus Majarra 08-20-07, 04:02 AM	Okay, I see where we have this misunderstanding. The Soul Eater's Energy Drain differs from the generic Energy Drain ability described in the 3.5 Monster Manual. Standard Energy Drain is delivered through weapon attacks (typically natural weapons). For example, any creature struck by a vampire's slam attack takes energy drain. In this respect, the vampire is using this ability not by virtue of devoting a special action to inflicting energy drain, but by having his weapon strike. It's much more similar to a weapon property than it is to an ability. MM308 implies that energy drain must be included in some type of attack form. This is evident with creatures such as vampires (for which the slam includes energy drain), but not so for Soul Eaters, since "touch" is not a weapon. A touch merely indicates that, whatever the action type required may be, the Soul Eater will bestow negative levels by making melee touch attacks. As it is, none of the Soul Eater's attacks deliver energy drain. The question here is: how many such attacks are you entitled to for how many actions? Since its energy drain is not delivered by natural weapon attacks, we cannot resolve the use of this ability as a substitute to any form of attack. This is why it must be defaulted to a standard action, the norm for supernatural abilities.
Frugal 08-20-07, 07:43 AM	Just pointing out here, BOVD is 3.0 and the energy drain (su) description is from the 3.5 MM, might that be the cause for some of the discrepancies in the language? I know I've seen a lot of 3.0 sources use terms like "touch" without realising that it's a specific game term.
heffroncm 08-22-07, 11:26 PM	Just pointing out here, BOVD is 3.0 and the energy drain (su) description is from the 3.5 MM, might that be the cause for some of the discrepancies in the language? I know I've seen a lot of 3.0 sources use terms like "touch" without realising that it's a specific game term. This is exactly why anything 3.0 is banned in my games. If someone REALLY wants to use it, I rebuild it for 3.5. If I want to use it, I rebuild it for myself. If a meer touch drains 2 negative levels, what happens in a grappel? Instant death for the enemy? Can the ability only work a certain number of times per round? Or maybe, once per round? :D