Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Phrennzy 04-27-07, 04:50 PM	I have a 12th level druid PC. The player constantly converts his spells into summoning spells. Every round more and more creatures pop out. It becomes cumbersome on the board, and the player, and slows combat to a crawl. Is there a HD limit to how many creatures you can summon and control at one time? I can't find any sort of reference....
tos_shai_hulud 04-27-07, 05:07 PM	No limit, really, but a caster spending a full round action casting and no NPCs going after him? In my games, summoners have the most difficult task of all... getting their spells to complete. NPCs will literally jump out of combat if they realize they can stop a spell from going off. The squishy casters making themselves known and vulnerable? It doesn't get any better than that!
im_robertb 04-27-07, 05:17 PM	There is not. However, as DM, and thus mainly responsible for everyone's enjoyment of the game, there are measures you are completely within your rights to put into place. -Require that the Druid have statblocks for everything he wants to summon ready well enough before session that you can look over them however much you wish. -Require that the Druid have the minis for everything he wants to summon ready when the creature is summoned. This shouldn't be difficult, as he has the time it takes everyone else to take their actions to get things ready (the spell doesn't come into effect until the beginning of the summoner's next turn, as is the case with all spells with a 1-round casting time.) -Require what I call 'hurry-up offense' on the part of the Druid. When his turn comes up, he has a limited, pre-determined amount of time to decide on an action. If he can't in that time, he delays until he knows what he wants to do. If he feels that this is unfair, institute it on the other players as well. With a 12th level character, it's unlikely that the creatures would be disappearing during the combat (unless it goes for over 12 rounds.) Keep in mind that enemy spellcasters may have a spell or scroll ready for such an occasion. Spells such as Protection from/Magic Circle against [alignment] can keep the summoned creatures from being useful, keeping them from making physical contact with affected creatures. This may be less useful to you with a Druid summoning animals, which are True Neutral. Dismissal and Banishment may also work, but even better is Dispel Magic. An area dispel gets a chance at dispelling every summoned creature in a 20' radius. Better yet, Dominate Animal, a 3rd level Druid spell (possibly from a scroll or other magic item) can take the Druid's big, bad, 6th level summon and turn it against him.
meabolex 04-27-07, 05:17 PM	No limit, really, but a caster spending a full round action casting and no NPCs going after him? Nothing screams "HIT ME!" like someone in a robe chanting and waving hands around for a fairly lengthy period of time. (: Well, in the case of a druid with Natural Spell, a bear chanting in bearish. And waving paws around. . .
Marcus Majarra 04-27-07, 05:31 PM	Keep in mind that the druid cannot really control his summoned creatures. If he can't even communicate with them, they'll simply attack his opponents to the best of their ability. There are also many ways of preventing the summons from being effective at all: 1) Interrupting the spellcaster during the 1-round casting time 2) Casting dispel magic (a single casting can negate all summons) 3) Protection from Alignment and Magic Circle against Alignment make summoned creatures unable to attack the warded creatures
Phrennzy 04-27-07, 05:35 PM	I feel I must point out that Marcus Majarra has a very creepy, yet very sexy, avatar picture. Just sayin'.
Molitor 04-27-07, 10:04 PM	I feel I must point out that Marcus Majarra has a very creepy, yet very sexy, avatar picture. Just sayin'. Ummmm, yeah........... Anyways, I'll add that perhaps the critters he summons can't hear him during combat. If that is the case then perhaps he can't issue other commands. And if they 'attack the PCs enemies to the best of its abilities' then the critters will all gang up on one single meaningless enemy if it happens to be the closest to them.
Marcus Majarra 04-27-07, 10:47 PM	I have to thank winning an UnCon contest for having a custom avatar. ^_^
Pegasos989 04-28-07, 04:29 AM	Agreed about the avatar but to the point... Have enemies cast protection from good and summoned creatures can't attack them. That should reduce summoning.
AQuebman 04-30-07, 01:01 PM	Does it work like Summon Monster? If so I believe Summon Monster states the creature comes out and instantly attacks, that one round would take up your turn but you wouldn't be able to stop the caster unless the casting time was lengthened for some reason.
tos_shai_hulud 04-30-07, 02:10 PM	Does it work like Summon Monster? If so I believe Summon Monster states the creature comes out and instantly attacks, that one round would take up your turn but you wouldn't be able to stop the caster unless the casting time was lengthened for some reason. Summon Monster doesn't state that it happens the round you begin casting. It states that after a one round casting time, meaning NEXT turn, the creature comes out and instantly attacks. Until your NEXT turn, you are casting and can be interrupted. Keep in mind the casting time of 1 round does not mean one full round action. It means a full round action plus the time between rounds.
AQuebman 04-30-07, 02:38 PM	HOLD on, now I am utterly confused. Theres a difference between a Full round and 1 round? From everything i've ever heard of a full round and 1 round, pretty much consists of your entire turn, meaning it would finish when your done, meaning at the end of your turn your summoned creature would act because it would poof.
tos_shai_hulud 04-30-07, 03:17 PM	A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. The second sentence tells you when the spell completes. The third sentence tells you when your casting ends (the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell).
artgrtr8u 04-30-07, 03:20 PM	HOLD on, now I am utterly confused. Theres a difference between a Full round and 1 round? From everything i've ever heard of a full round and 1 round, pretty much consists of your entire turn, meaning it would finish when your done, meaning at the end of your turn your summoned creature would act because it would poof. Yes, it is different. tos_shai_hulud stated it correctly. The casting of a spell listed as taking "1 Round", not "Full-Round Action" doesn't complete until the beginning of your next turn. (I'll try to find a reference to post, but I'm pretty sure you can find references to this in the FAQ). Also, how about having your bad guys blasting the critters with some area attacks? If the druid is casting low-level summons, the summoned critters won't stand up to something like a fireball or fire-breath from a CR 12 monster. Edit: tos beat me on the reference post.
GoobDBZ 04-30-07, 09:09 PM	Many CR 10+ have very useful AoE attacks that would take care of the creatures. Cleave and Great Cleave work great too. Another option is the size of the room so many creatures could cause his to get stuck in a crappy area while he gets picked off by archers.
Clearly_Toughpick 05-04-07, 09:46 AM	Surely at L10 you can throw lots of creatures at the party that have damage resistance or fast healing or other special abilities that will easily incapacitate summoned monsters and so aren't threatened by them. I'm thinking CR 7: Formian Taskmaster can dominate creatures CR 8: Bodak has DR 10/?? 7-headed cryohydra has fast healing 17 CR 9: Water elemental has DR 10/?? Dragons start to get DR and have frightful presence around this level too. All that will get your player to think again
Timori 05-06-07, 02:47 PM	I have a 12th level druid PC. The player constantly converts his spells into summoning spells. Every round more and more creatures pop out. So what spells is he converting? A one-trick pony PC is easy to stop and done carefully can make the character more interesting and fun for all at the table. Put in some challenges that the lost spells would easily overcome. Do it before he summons everything and he won't be able to convert them because they'd be used up. Or do it after, and he might think twice next time.
Arandmoor 05-07-07, 02:48 PM	So what spells is he converting? A one-trick pony PC is easy to stop and done carefully can make the character more interesting and fun for all at the table. Put in some challenges that the lost spells would easily overcome. Do it before he summons everything and he won't be able to convert them because they'd be used up. Or do it after, and he might think twice next time. Don't punish the player for simply using one of his class abilities, especially since it's not the summoning that's causing problems. It's the management. I concur with an above poster. If he's going to be doing a lot of summoning then he had better already have his furry friends' stats written up and ready as well as a mini (if you're using them). If he runs out or you need a mini and it's not availiable because the druid's using it then you, by default, get to use it and the summoning fails. If you honestly want him to curb it a bit, then have a talk with the player about how much he summons and how much time looking up information is costing the group. Don't just punish him in game or he can very well (and rightly so) start to feel singled out. Don't single him out. You don't want to alienate a player...or a friend. Try to get him to step up to the plate a bit more instead. If he really wants to summon, then have him do the book keeping to save time and free up yourself. Besides that, if he's got all the druid summons animals stated out and ready to go...they're availiable for when you pull out that evil druid and go all puppet-master on his butt :D