I caught one cheating... [Archive] - Wizards Community

I caught one cheating... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rks
03-18-07, 06:03 PM He fudged a roll. He has two d20s that look the same (color, font) and placed one facing 20 upwards, and rolled the other to the same area and "accidently" read the wrong dice. I pointed it out and he said "oh yeah" and read the rolled dice instead. One other player also noticed this.

After the session, I took some (300, they are starting with new lvl 1 chars, he still got to level to level 2) of hos xp away when I gave them the sum after the session. One other player asked "why does he get so little" and I said something like "there are reasons".

Should I do the "serious talk"-thing with him, just keep my eyes on him or what? Have you had any experience with this kind of behaviour and if so, how did you manage it?

Thx in advance!
KillerGM
03-18-07, 06:29 PM Well, you did good in terms of noticing and calling out his "mistake" at the table.

As for the XP, I don't like to resort to those things, especially with such a "mysterious" reasoning.

I usually leave it up to peer pressure (good of the other player to mention the die) and at-the-table correction.

If I don't see a die rolled, it doesn't happen. You reroll.

As for this guy, it may have been an "accident", if it's his first offense or something. We have all had our "crack-smoking" moments at the table (4 + 7 = 15!! :P), and I like to give the players the benefit of the doubt.

I would not dock XP for it, though. If he was cheating, I'd call him out every time I see it. EVERY TIME. And after that, I'd make a joke of it (Like, are we using "normal" math, or "player's name" math?)

If it's a real problem, and peer pressure/embarrassment doesn't help, talk to him one-on-one. He will most likely deny it and feel like you are "picking on him". If it can't be resolved, you should ask him to leave. Nobody needs anyone who cheats at D&D at their table.

I mean, come on. It's D&D, people.
dndfencer
03-18-07, 06:35 PM if he was making some role that, supposing he succeded, would ruin the campaign, make him way over powered, or save him from complete destruction; then i'd care. If not then it doesn't really matter that much and you should just let him know he was caught and tell him you've got your eyes on him and he probably won't do it again.
lastknightleft
03-18-07, 07:12 PM It's a game, he shouldn't need to cheat, even if every roll fails, and he dies, it's not game over. Make sure though that that specific player knows the reason, even if no other player does. Also try asking him to only have one of those similar dice out at a time to avoid the "confusion".
Krusk
03-18-07, 10:30 PM He fudged a roll. He has two d20s that look the same (color, font) and placed one facing 20 upwards, and rolled the other to the same area and "accidently" read the wrong dice. I pointed it out and he said "oh yeah" and read the rolled dice instead. One other player also noticed this.

After the session, I took some (300, they are starting with new lvl 1 chars, he still got to level to level 2) of hos xp away when I gave them the sum after the session. One other player asked "why does he get so little" and I said something like "there are reasons".

Should I do the "serious talk"-thing with him, just keep my eyes on him or what? Have you had any experience with this kind of behavior and if so, how did you manage it?

Thx in advance!

did everything right except for one thing.

"why does he get so little?"
"Cheating"

that sets the idea in motion that it won't be tolerated.
lockdar
03-19-07, 03:46 AM I happen to have a player that has a tendency to read the wrong dice aswell. Whenever we start our gaming session I warn everyone that any dice that dissappears behind books/candles or other stuff stays there and doesn't get touched. If the player that rolled it touches the die it's an automatic fumble. I also say clearly that when I catch someone cheating I will warn that person only once. When he cheats the second time, I will also start cheating. Has worked for me so far :)
Millennium
03-19-07, 06:46 AM Are you sure he actually intended to read the wrong die? If this has only ever happened once then it could be an honest mistake, though he needs to get into the habit of using differently colored dice of the same type.

In any case, it's always a judgment call. Certainly you can't just do nothing at all, but exactly what you do depends on a number of factors: how severely the player cheated, how likely it is that the player could cheat again, and things like that. Ultimately you're the only one who can really make that call.
Evil DM Mk3
03-19-07, 06:48 AM As of this day all of your players (to avoid such anoying mistakes ;) ) will roll onto an empty flat surface and pick their dice back up again. That way, no matter how identidcal the die, it isn't there.
Millennium
03-19-07, 09:36 AM As of this day all of your players (to avoid such anoying mistakes ;) ) will roll onto an empty flat surface and pick their dice back up again. That way, no matter how identidcal the die, it isn't there.
Shoeboxes or formalized dice trays also work very well for this.
Frugal
03-19-07, 11:17 AM Shoeboxes or formalized dice trays also work very well for this.

Yep, from playing w40k (which have the nice big box lids) I got into using the "craps table" for rolling. I still tend to roll my dice around in my hand a lot before letting them drop and it still really bugs me when I see people just cup a die in their hand and let it drop out onto the table.
Ikyotojin
03-19-07, 03:12 PM Rules from the outset at my house - and I've had the same rules for 25+years.

1 - If it's not on the table where everyone can see it, it doesn't count.

2 - If you are the only one to see it, it didn't happen. Role again.

3 - Leave it there till I see it. Otherwise it didn't happen. Role again.

4 - Even the DM's roles have to be seen for combat. (I like to be fair... and every so often just tossing some random dice out on the table and muttering "damn... not this time" makes for GREAT paranoia!) The only exception is when I have a hidden monster or trap or magic in the works.

And I don't accuse people of cheating - just :fudging: their rolls. They get the idea when the next batch of monsters all seem to focus on one character.
Jack Greylock
03-20-07, 04:21 PM We have a player who does this so often that we have named the act of cheating in D&D after him. he is so infamous for it now that none of his rolls are believed unless everyone at the table saw it rolled.

To be honest this was probably the wrong aproach as he has taken it as a point of pride now, and seems to think it is his god given right to cheat whenever possible now.
Phrennzy
03-20-07, 05:38 PM No XP penalties ever. Certainly not for 'cheating'.

If it happens often, bring it up outside of the game, one on one. Talk to your player.
Voran
03-20-07, 06:33 PM I'd suggest an out of game talk. If it continues, in game penalties plus possible suspension.

Also, the idea of a designated roll 'box' something the size of a monopoly game cover works. Also for those guys with the suspiciously good hand-rolls, dice in a cup.
Nom
03-20-07, 10:29 PM Actually, an XP penalty is IMO an appropriate punishment, if it's acceptable in your group's "culture". XP exists both in game and in the metagame. You're applying a deliberate and clear penalty to the PC (the player's in-game alter-ego) for a deliberate breach of group protocols. The issue is in the open (at least between player and DM), the player has a right of reply, and you both know where things stand.

Poor DM-ing is to punish the player by secretly nerfing their PC. You've separated cause and effect, you've removed right of reply, and the player might not even notice save that the game is suddenly stacked against them (and thus might feel the need to cheat (more?) to even the odds).

Disclaimer: I award token bonus XP (roughly 5% of a level per level) to PCs in my group for metagame activities that serve to advance the story and improve PC development, such as in-character journals or the like. Thus, I see no inconsistency in using the opposite logic, penalising XP for activities that harm the shared game experience.
starfire311
03-20-07, 11:40 PM No XP penalties ever. Certainly not for 'cheating'.

If it happens often, bring it up outside of the game, one on one. Talk to your player.

I have to agree with this, as much as I abhor cheating, I would not penalize someone ingame for it. I would point it out the 1st time, and let him know that I hope it was just a mistake, and at some point in the near future I would make sure to go on one of my famous rants about how much I hate cheating. Then if It ever happens again, he is gone.
olshanski_home
03-21-07, 10:05 PM I also abhor cheating, but I agree no XP penalties.

You should not use game rules or game mechanics as a crutch to ease meaningful human interaction. This is a real life problem with the player, not a character problem. you should deal with it in real life, face-to-face, and not use rules to enforce your will.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rks 03-18-07, 06:03 PM	He fudged a roll. He has two d20s that look the same (color, font) and placed one facing 20 upwards, and rolled the other to the same area and "accidently" read the wrong dice. I pointed it out and he said "oh yeah" and read the rolled dice instead. One other player also noticed this. After the session, I took some (300, they are starting with new lvl 1 chars, he still got to level to level 2) of hos xp away when I gave them the sum after the session. One other player asked "why does he get so little" and I said something like "there are reasons". Should I do the "serious talk"-thing with him, just keep my eyes on him or what? Have you had any experience with this kind of behaviour and if so, how did you manage it? Thx in advance!
KillerGM 03-18-07, 06:29 PM	Well, you did good in terms of noticing and calling out his "mistake" at the table. As for the XP, I don't like to resort to those things, especially with such a "mysterious" reasoning. I usually leave it up to peer pressure (good of the other player to mention the die) and at-the-table correction. If I don't see a die rolled, it doesn't happen. You reroll. As for this guy, it may have been an "accident", if it's his first offense or something. We have all had our "crack-smoking" moments at the table (4 + 7 = 15!! :P), and I like to give the players the benefit of the doubt. I would not dock XP for it, though. If he was cheating, I'd call him out every time I see it. EVERY TIME. And after that, I'd make a joke of it (Like, are we using "normal" math, or "player's name" math?) If it's a real problem, and peer pressure/embarrassment doesn't help, talk to him one-on-one. He will most likely deny it and feel like you are "picking on him". If it can't be resolved, you should ask him to leave. Nobody needs anyone who cheats at D&D at their table. I mean, come on. It's D&D, people.
dndfencer 03-18-07, 06:35 PM	if he was making some role that, supposing he succeded, would ruin the campaign, make him way over powered, or save him from complete destruction; then i'd care. If not then it doesn't really matter that much and you should just let him know he was caught and tell him you've got your eyes on him and he probably won't do it again.
lastknightleft 03-18-07, 07:12 PM	It's a game, he shouldn't need to cheat, even if every roll fails, and he dies, it's not game over. Make sure though that that specific player knows the reason, even if no other player does. Also try asking him to only have one of those similar dice out at a time to avoid the "confusion".
Krusk 03-18-07, 10:30 PM	He fudged a roll. He has two d20s that look the same (color, font) and placed one facing 20 upwards, and rolled the other to the same area and "accidently" read the wrong dice. I pointed it out and he said "oh yeah" and read the rolled dice instead. One other player also noticed this. After the session, I took some (300, they are starting with new lvl 1 chars, he still got to level to level 2) of hos xp away when I gave them the sum after the session. One other player asked "why does he get so little" and I said something like "there are reasons". Should I do the "serious talk"-thing with him, just keep my eyes on him or what? Have you had any experience with this kind of behavior and if so, how did you manage it? Thx in advance! did everything right except for one thing. "why does he get so little?" "Cheating" that sets the idea in motion that it won't be tolerated.
lockdar 03-19-07, 03:46 AM	I happen to have a player that has a tendency to read the wrong dice aswell. Whenever we start our gaming session I warn everyone that any dice that dissappears behind books/candles or other stuff stays there and doesn't get touched. If the player that rolled it touches the die it's an automatic fumble. I also say clearly that when I catch someone cheating I will warn that person only once. When he cheats the second time, I will also start cheating. Has worked for me so far :)
Millennium 03-19-07, 06:46 AM	Are you sure he actually intended to read the wrong die? If this has only ever happened once then it could be an honest mistake, though he needs to get into the habit of using differently colored dice of the same type. In any case, it's always a judgment call. Certainly you can't just do nothing at all, but exactly what you do depends on a number of factors: how severely the player cheated, how likely it is that the player could cheat again, and things like that. Ultimately you're the only one who can really make that call.
Evil DM Mk3 03-19-07, 06:48 AM	As of this day all of your players (to avoid such anoying mistakes ;) ) will roll onto an empty flat surface and pick their dice back up again. That way, no matter how identidcal the die, it isn't there.
Millennium 03-19-07, 09:36 AM	As of this day all of your players (to avoid such anoying mistakes ;) ) will roll onto an empty flat surface and pick their dice back up again. That way, no matter how identidcal the die, it isn't there. Shoeboxes or formalized dice trays also work very well for this.
Frugal 03-19-07, 11:17 AM	Shoeboxes or formalized dice trays also work very well for this. Yep, from playing w40k (which have the nice big box lids) I got into using the "craps table" for rolling. I still tend to roll my dice around in my hand a lot before letting them drop and it still really bugs me when I see people just cup a die in their hand and let it drop out onto the table.
Ikyotojin 03-19-07, 03:12 PM	Rules from the outset at my house - and I've had the same rules for 25+years. 1 - If it's not on the table where everyone can see it, it doesn't count. 2 - If you are the only one to see it, it didn't happen. Role again. 3 - Leave it there till I see it. Otherwise it didn't happen. Role again. 4 - Even the DM's roles have to be seen for combat. (I like to be fair... and every so often just tossing some random dice out on the table and muttering "damn... not this time" makes for GREAT paranoia!) The only exception is when I have a hidden monster or trap or magic in the works. And I don't accuse people of cheating - just :fudging: their rolls. They get the idea when the next batch of monsters all seem to focus on one character.
Jack Greylock 03-20-07, 04:21 PM	We have a player who does this so often that we have named the act of cheating in D&D after him. he is so infamous for it now that none of his rolls are believed unless everyone at the table saw it rolled. To be honest this was probably the wrong aproach as he has taken it as a point of pride now, and seems to think it is his god given right to cheat whenever possible now.
Phrennzy 03-20-07, 05:38 PM	No XP penalties ever. Certainly not for 'cheating'. If it happens often, bring it up outside of the game, one on one. Talk to your player.
Voran 03-20-07, 06:33 PM	I'd suggest an out of game talk. If it continues, in game penalties plus possible suspension. Also, the idea of a designated roll 'box' something the size of a monopoly game cover works. Also for those guys with the suspiciously good hand-rolls, dice in a cup.
Nom 03-20-07, 10:29 PM	Actually, an XP penalty is IMO an appropriate punishment, if it's acceptable in your group's "culture". XP exists both in game and in the metagame. You're applying a deliberate and clear penalty to the PC (the player's in-game alter-ego) for a deliberate breach of group protocols. The issue is in the open (at least between player and DM), the player has a right of reply, and you both know where things stand. Poor DM-ing is to punish the player by secretly nerfing their PC. You've separated cause and effect, you've removed right of reply, and the player might not even notice save that the game is suddenly stacked against them (and thus might feel the need to cheat (more?) to even the odds). Disclaimer: I award token bonus XP (roughly 5% of a level per level) to PCs in my group for metagame activities that serve to advance the story and improve PC development, such as in-character journals or the like. Thus, I see no inconsistency in using the opposite logic, penalising XP for activities that harm the shared game experience.
starfire311 03-20-07, 11:40 PM	No XP penalties ever. Certainly not for 'cheating'. If it happens often, bring it up outside of the game, one on one. Talk to your player. I have to agree with this, as much as I abhor cheating, I would not penalize someone ingame for it. I would point it out the 1st time, and let him know that I hope it was just a mistake, and at some point in the near future I would make sure to go on one of my famous rants about how much I hate cheating. Then if It ever happens again, he is gone.
olshanski_home 03-21-07, 10:05 PM	I also abhor cheating, but I agree no XP penalties. You should not use game rules or game mechanics as a crutch to ease meaningful human interaction. This is a real life problem with the player, not a character problem. you should deal with it in real life, face-to-face, and not use rules to enforce your will.