Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Will_DM_for_Pizza 05-21-07, 01:41 AM	Alright, I'm hosting a group at my house and they haven't decided on classes yet. And one class I'm not particularlly a fan of is Monks because I think that the abilities for them are just much to out there about them in terms of balence. Is there a way I can justify letting a character play monk even if I think that they're too overpowered? I know that multiclassing for a monk is highly difficult, but is there anything else?
KurenaiYami 05-21-07, 01:45 AM	Alright, I'm hosting a group at my house and they haven't decided on classes yet. And one class I'm not particularlly a fan of is Monks because I think that the abilities for them are just much to out there about them in terms of balence. Is there a way I can justify letting a character play monk even if I think that they're too overpowered? I know that multiclassing for a monk is highly difficult, but is there anything else? My first response was going to be a long, long series of laughs and snorts about this post, but that wouldn't be polite, so I'll skip it. Monks have a lot of little abilities that are really not all that useful at the point you get them. Monks are in no way, shape, or form overpowered. They get a lot of little bonuses that don't synergize well towards a single goal. Monks make a good fifth man, if you have all the other rolls filled, but on its own, it is really not that impressive. I play monks often, mind you, but that's because I love the flavor and roleplaying them.
calronmoonflower 05-21-07, 01:53 AM	Alright, I'm hosting a group at my house and they haven't decided on classes yet. And one class I'm not particularlly a fan of is Monks because I think that the abilities for them are just much to out there about them in terms of balence. Is there a way I can justify letting a character play monk even if I think that they're too overpowered? I know that multiclassing for a monk is highly difficult, but is there anything else? Despite appearances monks are not overpowered. They generally don't have an AC equal to others, have trouble landing blows with the Flurry of Blows ability, but their Stunning Fist can be extremely useful if they hit. One good way to use a monk is to take Vow of Poverty and multiclassing into a Sacred Fist. That might have the people shouting broken, but requires you to be extremely good all the time.
Perseus_Stoned 05-21-07, 01:55 AM	Is there a way I can justify letting a character play monk even if I think that they're too overpowered? Give them Vow of Poverty for free, but let them use items anyways and tell them they don't need to uphold the "exalted" status.
Kouk 05-21-07, 02:24 AM	The only feats you have to watch out for are VoP and Improved Natural Attack. Anything else and they are pretty darn average.
Illithid_Tentacles 05-21-07, 04:53 AM	WHY do you think they're overpowered? What about them jumps out at you as being troublesome?
Kouk 05-21-07, 07:11 AM	If you genuinely want pure downsides of a monk, I will try to provide a few. Monks are a melee class that does not get a full BAB progression. Monks can't/won't wear armor, and miss out on several useful enchantments like elemental resistance or fortification. Monks can't/won't use weapons, as their fists are far superior to the ones they are proficient with. This makes it difficult for a monk to bypass many forms of damage reduction effectively. A Monk's fist is only magic and lawful and adamantine, that doesn't help against things as simple as DR/slashing or DR/good. A heavily enchanted weapon can easily do more damage than a monk's fist if wielded well (if only by virtue of hitting more often). Monk skill points are OK, but not great. Stunning Fist is awesome if it works, but it is usually resisted by enemies you are in melee with. Slow Fall: Almost never comes into play. Evasion: Monks and Rangers get evasion too. Purity of Body: Paladins are immune to diseases as well. Wholeness of Body: The amount healed is minor and has little impact. Paladins heal themselves a bit too. Abundant Step: Cool but only once a day, and nothing compared to a spellcaster at that level. Diamond Body: Druids are immune to poisons as well. As long as the rest of the classes have adequate equipment, then the monk will be very useful but not overpowered.
weasel0 05-21-07, 01:39 PM	One way of circumventing alot of the DRs and others is to go Prc Kensai from the Complete Warrior?95% sure it is. Allows you to expend XP and GP to upgrade your chosen weapon like a magic weapon. Still doesn't help for DR/Slashing though.
Empiro 05-21-07, 04:07 PM	Actually, monks by midlevels quite often have far higher ACs than a full-plate wearer can get. Monks are really hard to kill, but in turn, they're not very good at killing either. Monks are probably one of the more balanced classes out there.
MarkB 05-21-07, 04:58 PM	One way of circumventing alot of the DRs and others is to go Prc Kensai from the Complete Warrior?95% sure it is. Allows you to expend XP and GP to upgrade your chosen weapon like a magic weapon. Still doesn't help for DR/Slashing though. PHBII has a feat Versatile Unarmed Strike, that lets your unarmed strikes count as either bludgeoning, piercing or slashing as you choose.
darkeness 05-21-07, 05:19 PM	I ran a heavy combat game into the upper levels with a player using a monk. He was a liablility to the party until I gave him a near artifact power item which increased his 3 primary stats (STR, DEX & WIS). Then he was about equal to the fighters. The only time the monk is really a pain is when he tumbles around the front-line mooks to go after a caster. This player used improved grapple and improved disarm to great effect and mages with their low fort saves are more susceptible to Stunning Fist IF the monk can hit them.
Vharuck 05-21-07, 05:27 PM	Monks suffer from MAD (Mutliple Ability Dependency), where they need good scores in more than half of their abilities to do everything at a decent level. Since this isn't easily done, many monks are forced to ignore using certain abilities since they wouldn't be worth trying due to a bad ability score. Not only that, but their damage is meh. They miss a lot, and while their unarmed damage does scale upwards, it costs much more to enhance than other weapons (see amulet of mighty fists and its hefty price tag).
Millennium 05-21-07, 10:30 PM	Monks do have some very powerful abilities, but they are also under mechanical restrictions which tend to balance them out. While they may look overpowered on paper, they actually aren't. They're actually somewhat underpowered if the player isn't careful with his tactics, though a good strategist can use monks to good effect. Seriously; monks look more powerful than they actually are. You don't need to worry about them.
ColonelPanic 05-23-07, 06:59 AM	I think the suspicion of monks roots from AD&D (1.0), when the monks arrived and was "way over the top" compared to all other classes. (Probably the way I personally feel about the Tomb of Battle classes right now). The monk has the Cleric BAB and HP. I guess that this is to "keep him down". If the monk had full BAB and d12 hit die, then it would have been overpowered,
Bopple 05-23-07, 07:31 AM	Pretty much what everyone said. Monk is one of the weakest classes out there. One exceptional condition is a very low magic campaign with very good stat rolls.
WagnerSika 05-24-07, 02:16 AM	I think the suspicion of monks roots from AD&D (1.0), when the monks arrived and was "way over the top" compared to all other classes. For some reason people thought the monks as they originally appeared in 1st edition AD&D PHB were really uber. At later levels dishing out 1d20 with 4 attacks per round, having AC of -4 (equates to 24 now) in their underwear and killing with impunity with the quivering palm ability, they were tough. But low levels were hell. -At first level 2d4 hit points, later levels 1d4, same as magic-users. -Thac0 progression similar to thieves. -At first level your AC was 10, dexterity NEVER applied to your AC for monks, they were not even allowed to use magic items to raise (or lower actually, lower the AC the better it was then) their AC. Instead their AC got better as they got up in levels. -Crappy special abilities, at 5th level you got feign death when you magic-user buddy learned to fling lightning bolts and hold persons. They did get some thief skills like climb and open locks. Yeah, first thing in the morning the ascetic monks started to practice breaking and entering. Maybe the monasteries were all dedicated to Mask? On top of it all they had insane ability score requirements so very few ever even got the chance to play monks, especially with method I(roll 3d6 once for each ability in order, the old school method). Oh and did I mention that in order to advance beyond 11th level you had to find and defeat another monk of the desired level after aquiring the necessary xp to raise a level.. If you won, you were now one level higher, if you lost, oops just lost a level. Eg. 11th level monk challenged 12th level monk. He loses and is now 10th level, yippee. And when you finally got that higher level some NPC monk of lower level challenges you. Again if you lose, oops drop a level. And it required a LOT more xp to get higher levels in 1st ed than in 3.x. No wonder no one I know ever played monks without some heavy house ruling. Later on a Dragon magazine article gave the monk a much needed boost (D6 hit dice (still crap), better AC, special abilities that made sense for the level etc.)
DarkNick 05-24-07, 06:59 PM	If you don't like them, for whatever reason, then don't allow them in your game. Say it up front "no monks in this game please, it just does not suit my vision for the campaign". Not so hard eh? Why do you feel that you need to justify it to yourself to allow something you don't want in the game?
Bopple 05-24-07, 09:40 PM	Of course you can ban it if you don't think it does not suit your game. But that would be a lie, if power balance is the true reason. *shrug* What is worse, monk is not worth so much as to lie about the motive.