Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Senevri 03-11-07, 04:41 PM	Okay, a fight vs. several Battlebriars from MM3 showed me I don't know grappling as well as I thought... - A monk was pinned, and managed to Escape Artist himself from there. He's still grappling - does he get the grapple check to disengage/do damage there. - While grappling, you can attack with a light weapon or unarmed. Do you need to win a grapple check to do this, or do you just roll vs. AC? Also, surely you cannot full-attack? - An Improved Grabbing monster hits, and gets a free action Grapple check, which it wins. It s now grappling, and has just won a grapple check. Can it now do damage? Can it get another grapple check to pin the opponent, or does that have to wait 'til next round? - When a Battlebriar's slam hits, it improved Grabs as a free action. When it grapples, it impales as a free action. The target IS actually helpless after this. What rules apply there? - Other stuff I need to keep in mind?
Nom 03-11-07, 07:27 PM	Yeah, the grappling rules aren't particularly elegant. Something to note: a grappling character may either take a standard and move action or a full attack, as normal, but their options are relatively limited. Some grapple actions count as attacks, some are standard actions, and some are move actions. Those which are attacks can be performed either as part of a full attack or as a standard action. Grappling creatures who full attack get iterative attacks as normal (treat BAB penalties as modifiers to the grapple check, if using grapple checks). They don't get extra attacks from extra weapons (whether TWF or natural weapons). The rules are unclear on whether flurry, haste and the like grant an extra attack. You do get extra attacks for BAB. You don't get extra attacks for extra weapons. Whether you only get BAB or whether you get other extra attacks as normal isn't stated. To the specific questions: A monk was pinned, and managed to Escape Artist himself from there. He's still grappling - does he get the grapple check to disengage/do damage there. No. Escape artist to escape a pin is a standard action (PH pg 157). He's out of actions until his next turn. While grappling, you can attack with a light weapon or unarmed. Do you need to win a grapple check to do this, or do you just roll vs. AC? Also, surely you cannot full-attack? Just roll vs AC, at -4 (PH pg 156). And yes, you can full attack if your weapon is capable of iterative attacks (ie not a natural weapon). There are two ways to "attack" in a grapple: "attack your opponent" (light weapon attack at -4) or "damage your opponent" (opposed grapple check, deal unarmed strike damage). Before you ask, a creature with a high bab but only natural weapons can make a single "attack your opponent" with one weapon and make iterative "damage your opponent" attacks. Without Improved Grab or the like these "damage your opponent" attacks will only deal non-lethal unarmed damage as normal for its size and strength. A creature with Rake gets two free "rake" attacks (without the -4) whenever it full-attacks in a grapple. An Improved Grabbing monster hits, and gets a free action Grapple check, which it wins. It s now grappling, and has just won a grapple check. Can it now do damage? Can it get another grapple check to pin the opponent, or does that have to wait 'til next round? It doesn't deal normal "establish a hold" damage (MM pg 310). However, if it still has iterative attacks available it could use attack-equivalent grapple actions, including pin or "damage your opponent". It can't rake. If it has already used more than one natural weapon attack I wouldn't allow it iterative grapples. When a Battlebriar's slam hits, it improved Grabs as a free action. When it grapples, it impales as a free action. The target IS actually helpless after this. What rules apply there? If the battlebriar explicitly says the target is helpless, then that overrides the normal rules. Being helpless is a pretty severe penalty, so you might want to double-check your reading of the rules.
Senevri 03-12-07, 02:25 PM	Thanks. Yeah, the Battlebriar actually helplessifies, which makes it quite nasty if it's being used by a clever BBEG. I'll need to draw a flowchart
lastknightleft 03-12-07, 02:57 PM	Ok, so how does one establish a pin, I've read the section three times and I can't find the mechanics for actually pinning, or I don't get them if I've read them and just didn't realize that that's what they were
Senevri 03-12-07, 08:46 PM	That's easy. Here's for my self-reference: There are four ( sorta three ) relevant states for grappling: Not Grappling Grappling Pinned Pinning The two last states are still grappling, but have special options / limited options. ACTIONS work normally when grappling: Standard Action Move Action Full-Round Action Swift Action Immediate Action Free Action When you're grappling, you're flat-footed and don't threaten any squares. You can still full attack as a Full-Round Action, with a light weapon, or a weapon that counts as light. I think you can use any attack option you have with these. *edit* Fixed thanks to Dragonteuthis's comments: If you are grappling, you can as a ATTACK ACTION, try to pin an opponent. This is done by rolling a grapple check and winning it. You can use a grapple check, as a ATTACK ACTION, to change your state from pinned to grappling. You can also substitute a standard action escape artist check here. This is my current understanding. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
lastknightleft 03-13-07, 10:53 AM	Okay so once pinned are they then able to attempt to break free during their action and if so, do they go back to grappling? or are they free? Now as to regular grappling the way I've run it is that during each person in the grapples round they have to make a check to either break or maintain the grapple, this leads to very short grapples, am i doing too many checks?
Senevri 03-13-07, 02:20 PM	My reading is that if you break a pin, you're still grappling. You don't HAVE to make a grapple check while grappling -- it's just that you need to, to do most things.
Dragonteuthis 03-13-07, 04:58 PM	If you are grappling, you can as a STANDARD ACTION, try to pin an opponent. This is done by rolling a grapple check and winning it. Incorrect. This is an attack action and thus can be substituted for an attack if your base attack allows for multiple attacks as a full attack action. You can use a grapple check, as a standard action, to change your state from pinned to grappling. You can also substitute a standard action escape artist check here. Partially incorrect. If you attempt to escape (a pin) with a grapple check, it replaces an attack. Escape Artist specifically mentions that it instead takes a standard action. If you doubt me please check pages 156 and 157 of the Player's handbook, it is quite specific on the actions required for these options.
Senevri 03-14-07, 10:08 AM	Oh... Oh my. While it makes better fighters the better grapplers... well, Oh, dear. Okay... A monster hits with it's improved Grab enabled attack - does it then, after winning the opposed grapple check, automatically do (further) unarmed damage?
Dragonteuthis 03-14-07, 11:21 AM	Unless the FAQ has changed since I last read it, you can combine Flurry of Blows with grappling, thus making Monks competitive grapplers. Okay... A monster hits with it's improved Grab enabled attack - does it then, after winning the opposed grapple check, automatically do (further) unarmed damage? No. In fact, the monster with Improved Grab won't be doing unarmed damage unless it uses an attack to take that grappling option. Here's how it might go down. Round One: The Dire Bear hits Bulb the Gnome with a claw attack. Improved Grab kicks in, and the Dire Bear attempts to grapple, and takes the -20 penalty. He succeeds. Dire Bears do not have Constrict, so no further damage occurs. Because the Bear took the -20 penalty he does not suffer the drawbacks of grappling and can use his remaining attacks (A Bite, Claw, and Laser Eyes*) against other foes. On his turn, Bulb tries to escape and fails. Round Two: The Dire Bear can continue using his other attacks against other foes, and with the claw attack he's lost, can make a grapple check against Bulb. If he succeeds on this grapple check (still at -20), Bulb takes Claw damage. Another example, this time with constrict: Round One: Poor Bulb! Adventuring is so dangerous! This time, he's been ambushed by a Chuul. The deadly crustacean, seething with vengeance for Bulb's shellfish meal last night, surges out of the water, striking Bulb with a claw (2d6+5 damage). As per the Chuul's Improved Grab ability, he begins grappling, taking the -20 penalty to gain full benefit. It's well established now that Bulb's a chump, and he fails the grapple check. The Chuul has the constrict ability, so his claws squeeze Bulb for an extra 3d6+5 damage. Ouch! On his turn Bulb fails to escape the grapple and begins crying softly. Round Two: Given that the Chuul has no nearby opponents, save for the Gnome trapped in his claw, the Chuul decides to take a Standard action to squeeze Bulb some more. On a successful grapple check (again, still at -20), the Chuul deals 2d6+5 damage from his claws and 3d5+5 damage from constricting. Then, as a move action, the Chuul decides to transfer Bulb to his tentacles. This requires no check (a special ability of the Chuul). While the tentacles deal no damage, the mandibles do. Bulb takes 1d8+2 points of damage as the Chuul begins chewing, and in addition he must make a DC 19 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 6 rounds. Things aren't looking good for Bulb. But he's a Gnome, so who cares? I hope this clarifies things. I suppose I could have picked a less complicated monster than the Chuul, but there it stands. * - not true
Senevri 03-14-07, 03:37 PM	All my players characters are gnomes. Well, except for the one who died and got reincarnated as a halfling. And the Shifter Gnome seems to spend most of his time in various Troll / Giant shapes... In any case, thanks for the illustrative examples. I still need to make a flowchart, though... T_T ...One of these days.
Unholy_King 03-14-07, 03:58 PM	Unless the FAQ has changed since I last read it, you can combine Flurry of Blows with grappling, thus making Monks competitive grapplers. All the FAQ says is that a Monk can use one of her attacks in a Flurry to initate a grapple, nothing about using it inside of a grapple. All my players characters are gnomes. Well, except for the one who died and got reincarnated as a halfling. And the Shifter Gnome seems to spend most of his time in various Troll / Giant shapes... In any case, thanks for the illustrative examples. I still need to make a flowchart, though... T_T ...One of these days. If you happen to make a good one, post it here so all of us grappling fans can steal/copy it.
Nom 03-14-07, 06:13 PM	Okay... A monster hits with it's improved Grab enabled attack - does it then, after winning the opposed grapple check, automatically do (further) unarmed damage?No. Read the description of IG in the MM - it explicitly states that establishing a hold doesn't do further damage. And it wouldn't be unarmed damage anyway: IG allows you to deal weapon damage not unarmed damage on a successful grapple check. It seems clear that this is "... when using the (equivalent of) 'damage your opponent'", but some people read it as including even reactive checks too.
StoneStokes 03-15-07, 12:44 AM	These might also help: All About Grappling (Part 1) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a) All About Grappling (Part 2) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a) StoneStokes
lastknightleft 03-15-07, 11:10 AM	Round One: The Dire Bear hits Bulb the Gnome with a claw attack. Improved Grab kicks in, and the Dire Bear attempts to grapple, and takes the -20 penalty. Because the Bear took the -20 penalty he does not suffer the drawbacks of grappling and can use his remaining attacks (A Bite, Claw, and Laser Eyes*) against other foes. On his turn, Bulb tries to escape and fails. Another example, this time with constrict: Round One: Poor Bulb! Adventuring is so dangerous! This time, he's been ambushed by a Chuul. The deadly crustacean, seething with vengeance for Bulb's shellfish meal last night, surges out of the water, striking Bulb with a claw (2d6+5 damage). As per the Chuul's Improved Grab ability, he begins grappling, taking the -20 penalty to gain full benefit. It's well established now that Bulb's a chump, and he fails the grapple check. The Chuul has the constrict ability, so his claws squeeze Bulb for an extra 3d6+5 damage. Ouch! On his turn Bulb fails to escape the grapple and begins crying softly. Round Two: Given that the Chuul has no nearby opponents, save for the Gnome trapped in his claw, the Chuul decides to take a Standard action to squeeze Bulb some more. On a successful grapple check (again, still at -20), the Chuul deals 2d6+5 damage from his claws and 3d5+5 damage from constricting. Then, as a move action, the Chuul decides to transfer Bulb to his tentacles. This requires no check (a special ability of the Chuul). While the tentacles deal no damage, the mandibles do. Bulb takes 1d8+2 points of damage as the Chuul begins chewing, and in addition he must make a DC 19 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 6 rounds. Things aren't looking good for Bulb. But he's a Gnome, so who cares? I hope this clarifies things. I suppose I could have picked a less complicated monster than the Chuul, but there it stands. * - not true What -20 penalty where is the -20 penalty coming from, i've read the grappling section and the improved grab section of monsters where does it say using improved grab gives a -20 penalty. I'm not disagreeing with you, just confused.
Merestil Haye 03-15-07, 12:16 PM	What -20 penalty where is the -20 penalty coming from, i've read the grappling section and the improved grab section of monsters where does it say using improved grab gives a -20 penalty. I'm not disagreeing with you, just confused.A grappling creature can choose to accept a -20 penalty on their grapple check in order to not lose a Dexterity bonus to AC and continue to threaten areas around them as normal. This used to be an option for any grappling creature, but that might have been restricted only to creatures with Improved Grab in the 3.5 revision. Senevri : No creature does automatic damage just because they won the check that initiated the grapple unless they have the Constrict ability, or the attack they are using states that they do damage if they win the check.
lastknightleft 03-15-07, 12:50 PM	Mind telling me where I can find that rule (rules laywer player in game I DM if I can't show it winds up being an issue)
StoneStokes 03-15-07, 03:02 PM	Mind telling me where I can find that rule (rules laywer player in game I DM if I can't show it winds up being an issue) See Improved Grab at the back of the Monster Manual.
Merestil Haye 03-15-07, 03:45 PM	Mind telling me where I can find that rule (rules laywer player in game I DM if I can't show it winds up being an issue)Improved Grab.Improved Grab If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.The bolded part is what you are asking for.
Dragonteuthis 03-16-07, 10:59 AM	Thanks for replying for me Merestil. Schoolwork is starting to catch up around my ears right now.
lastknightleft 03-16-07, 02:29 PM	thnx
weasel0 03-16-07, 06:55 PM	another fun little trick with grappling. Monster grapples (and wins) vs. me the player. I'm now grappled(say I'm a grapple build but rolled a 1 or I intentionally fail my check). My turn comes up, i'm already grappling. I make my grapple check and pin the monster and proceed to beat the crap out of it. Rules do not limit grapples to "he who initiates is the one who deals damage". I have felt very sorry for some "grapple" monsters who tangled with that monk. (The monk's Unarmed Strike counts as a light weapon by RAW)
ryryguy 03-16-07, 08:14 PM	One thing that's always been a little unclear to me about that optional -20 to grapple check option: how long does it last? If the creature takes it on its first grapple check (to establish the hold), does it still use the modifier during the held creature's turn when it has to make an opposed grapple check vs. its attempt to escape the grapple? If it can make multiple grapple-related actions during its round due to high BAB (trying to pin, etc.), does it have to take the -20 on all of them? I assume the answer to both of these questions is "yes", but I've never seen it spelled out. Another thing that just occurred to me. If taking the -20 means that the improved grappler "is not considered grappled itself", does this mean that weasel0's trick of "My turn comes up, i'm already grappling. I make my grapple check and pin the monster and proceed to beat the crap out of it" would fail against an improved grappler taking that -20? Since it's not considered grappled, therefore it can't be pinned? That would seem to be a fair interpretation of the rule and in line with common sense: the -20 represents the creature holding its victim with only a tentacle, can the victim pin the creature when all it has a hold of is that one tentacle? I guess if I did go with this interpretation, I'd make the held creature succeed at its own opposed grapple check in order to put the improved grappler into the grappled state itself (i.e., now I have your body and not just your tentacle). Whether the improved grappler would use the -20 on that check, I'm not sure. Also, once it did get into this state with both being considered grappled, the improved grappler could return to the "you're grappled, I'm not" state by winning a new opposed grapple check where it once again took the -20 modifier. Well, just kind of thinking aloud here... but it seems to make sense.
Senevri 03-17-07, 06:32 AM	Well, after the improved grab'd character succeeds in a grapple check, the monster IS grappling - presuming it's within one size category of the character. You cannot grapple creatures that are two categories larger than yourself, right?
Nom 03-17-07, 09:24 AM	One thing that's always been a little unclear to me about that optional -20 to grapple check option: how long does it last? If the creature takes it on its first grapple check (to establish the hold), does it still use the modifier during the held creature's turn when it has to make an opposed grapple check vs. its attempt to escape the grapple?Yes. RAW, the decision is permanent without dissolving the "grapple". Once you choose to use -20 with a particular limb, you continue to do so on all subsequent rounds. I'd have no problem with the grabber making a "grapple attack" on the grappled creature to convert it into a regular grapple - just assume the touch attack succeeds and proceed from step 3. If it can make multiple grapple-related actions during its round due to high BAB (trying to pin, etc.), does it have to take the -20 on all of them?If using the -20 option, it can only make a single grapple action per round against the held creature, in place of the limb's usual attack. The limb (only) is grappling, the rest of the creature is not, and thus gets none of the benefits or penalties of actually grappling. Another thing that just occurred to me. If taking the -20 means that the improved grappler "is not considered grappled itself", does this mean that weasel0's trick of "My turn comes up, i'm already grappling. I make my grapple check and pin the monster and proceed to beat the crap out of it" would fail against an improved grappler taking that -20? Since it's not considered grappled, therefore it can't be pinned?Correct. The hapless victim would need to attempt a grapple themself on the actual creature. One can argue about whether this is even possible without first breaking the grab. Note that if the creature can maintain a hold at -20, your chance of turning that into a pin for you is somewhere between Buckley's and none. I guess if I did go with this interpretation, I'd make the held creature succeed at its own opposed grapple check in order to put the improved grappler into the grappled state itself (i.e., now I have your body and not just your tentacle). Whether the improved grappler would use the -20 on that check, I'm not sure.No, it wouldn't suffer the -20, because it's defending against a new grapple, not the existing grapple. Also, once it did get into this state with both being considered grappled, the improved grappler could return to the "you're grappled, I'm not" state by winning a new opposed grapple check where it once again took the -20 modifier.As far as I can see, the only way for the grabber to regain this advantage is to break the grapple and then hit with the Improved Grab again. Note that a creature with Improved Grab that does not initiate the grapple (or for some reason initiates a grapple without using Improved Grab) gets no special benefit from Improved Grab. I'd allow a grappled creature with IG to use "attack your opponent", and if it hits and succeeds in the grapple check to bring the IG limb into play. I wouldn't allow it to take -20 on this check; it's already grappling and didn't break the existing grapple.
Nom 03-17-07, 09:30 AM	Well, after the improved grab'd character succeeds in a grapple check, the monster IS grappling - presuming it's within one size category of the character. You cannot grapple creatures that are two categories larger than yourself, right?You cannot successfully initiate a grapple with a creature two or more categories larger. If they initiate the grapple, you can do as you will (if your grapple check is high enough). Note that a monster can only use Improved Grab on smaller opponents unless explicitly excepted, which makes the Gibbering Mouther rather pointless as written unless your entire PC party is gnomes and halflings.
Senevri 03-17-07, 03:38 PM	Just checking, but Snatch... also suffers the -20 to grapple? What it gives is the auto-damage + no save on breath + fling, and is basically an Improved Grab otherwise? It also can effectively improved grab critters one size category smaller than itself, since Snatch is essentially Improved Grab on steroids... right?
ryryguy 03-17-07, 08:18 PM	Nom - looking over your response, I think you're probably right about how this works regarding the RAW. Thanks for the insight. As far as I can see, the only way for the grabber to regain this advantage is to break the grapple and then hit with the Improved Grab again. Note that a creature with Improved Grab that does not initiate the grapple (or for some reason initiates a grapple without using Improved Grab) gets no special benefit from Improved Grab. I'd allow a grappled creature with IG to use "attack your opponent", and if it hits and succeeds in the grapple check to bring the IG limb into play. I wouldn't allow it to take -20 on this check; it's already grappling and didn't break the existing grapple. Hmmm, I do like the idea of an improved grabber being able to rip off some pesky, shrimpy monk that has the temerity to get into a "full grapple" and still keep him in the tentacle grip by succeeding at the -20 check... but the point that Improved Grab doesn't help if you if you don't start the grapple is a good one. (And of course winning that -20 check is unlikely against the opponent who is engaging you in a regular grapple.) So while it seems like a cool idea, it's probably not a good one mechanically. I don't completely understand what you mean by this: "I'd allow a grappled creature with IG to use "attack your opponent", and if it hits and succeeds in the grapple check to bring the IG limb into play. I wouldn't allow it to take -20 on this check; it's already grappling and didn't break the existing grapple." Bringing the IG limb into play means what exactly? That it can do its regular attack damage (with the attack that normally triggers IG)? Could it also Constrict?
Nom 03-18-07, 12:02 AM	"Bringing the IG limb into play" means that it can now deal "normal" damage for that limb when using "damage your opponent", rather than unarmed strike damage. Example: monk grapples tiger. If tiger uses "damage your opponent" it only deals normal Large unarmed strike damage (1d4+Str non-lethal). Tiger doesn't like this and uses "attack your opponent" to claw the monk at -4. It hits (dealing 1d8+6), and wins the Improved Grab grapple check. The monk is now "Improved Grabbed", which means that the tiger can use "damage your opponent" to deal 1d8+6 lethal with its claw rather than a "measly" 1d4+6 non-lethal.