Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Traevanon 09-07-07, 08:13 AM	It would seem obvious but maybe I overlooked something. This tactic seems fairly popular. I have been reading examples of people favoring illusion magic to create things like fog or a wall of stone. If enemies in range had the Spellcraft skill wouldnt they get a test to know that the spell being cast is an illusion? If so would that simply allow a save or would it negate the illusion entirely for that person? Thanks
ermedic 09-07-07, 11:09 AM	A successful spellcraft check would, indeed, allow the PC to know that an illusion spell was being cast. ...A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. This, however, does not translate into an auto-disbelief for the rest of the party. If a character succeeds on a spellcraft check, he/she may alert the rest of the party granting them a +4 to their saving throw. Any interaction between a character and an illusion triggers a save for the character. Keep in mind that even those who make their save or those who need not make a save, still see a translucent figment where the illusion is cast.
heffroncm 09-07-07, 11:14 AM	Remember, though, that this only applies if the guy with Spellcraft sees the spell being cast.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-07-07, 01:30 PM	Remember, though, that this only applies if the guy with Spellcraft sees the spell being cast.No. You can use it on spells already in place. Spellcraft (Int; Trained Only) Use this skill to identify spells as they are cast or spells already in place. DC 20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry. [emphasis added] Of course, I know few DMs who give their players an automatic spellcraft check in such a place; usually only giving it if the player asks.
heffroncm 09-07-07, 02:18 PM	No. You can use it on spells already in place. Spellcraft (Int; Trained Only) Use this skill to identify spells as they are cast or spells already in place. DC 20 + spell level Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry. [emphasis added] Of course, I know few DMs who give their players an automatic spellcraft check in such a place; usually only giving it if the player asks. More emphasis added. If you do not see it cast, you have no reason to believe it is an illusion. Part of the point is to continue to allow creativity. If anyone with spellcraft can easily see through illusions on an automatic die-roll, it cuts an entire school of magic's usefulness against almost half the classes out there.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-07-07, 05:25 PM	If you do not see it cast, you have no reason to believe it is an illusion.I've always looked at it as you can see the effect, a visual figment in the case of silent image. So, are you arguing that since you don't see it as illusion you aren't really seeing the effect because you are being deceived. Interesting. Part of the point is to continue to allow creativity. If anyone with spellcraft can easily see through illusions on an automatic die-roll, it cuts an entire school of magic's usefulness against almost half the classes out there. I think that is why most DMs I've played with don't automatically roll for a spellcraft check.
The_Ditto 09-07-07, 05:30 PM	I'd probably run it like this: wizard casts an illusion of a wall of stone. PC with spellcraft makes his DC 20+ (whatever) check ... DM: "He just cast wall of stone" :rolleyes: I agree ... no way a "simple" skill check should so easily "nerf" an entire school ... follow it through ... sure, once he has a reason to realize it's not "real", he might get a spell craft to realize it ... (either in addition to or instead of a save .. not sure .. would probably wing it ..) .. but he'd have to interact with just like anyone else .. :tiphat:
ermedic 09-07-07, 06:17 PM	I think that is why most DMs I've played with don't automatically roll for a spellcraft check. Agreed. If the player asks for a spellcraft check, let him do it. However, unless he had detect magic or another similar spell already up, why would he ask for a spellcraft check? I can't imagine that any player would be constantly attempting spellcraft checks in the off chance that their environment might be an illusion. I've never known any DM who would automatically make/ask for a spellcraft check from a player. It is an action that the player makes and it is their responsibility to initiate said action. Regardless, the RAW are pretty simple: successful spellcraft check = identification of the spell. If the PC sees a spell being cast and makes a spellcraft check, he has proof that the spell is an illusion. Therefore, he need not make a saving throw. wizard casts an illusion of a wall of stone. PC with spellcraft makes his DC 20+ (whatever) check ... DM: "He just cast wall of stone" I cannot agree with this. If the wizard casts Illusory Wall and the party caster succeeds on his spellcraft check, the caster should be told what spell was cast, not Wall of Stone or any other spell that might provide a similar effect. Again, the rest of the party still needs to make the appropriate saves as normal. The party wizard telling them that the wall is an illusion does not provide proof to the other party members.
heffroncm 09-07-07, 10:27 PM	I cannot agree with this. If the wizard casts Illusory Wall and the party caster succeeds on his spellcraft check, the caster should be told what spell was cast, not Wall of Stone or any other spell that might provide a similar effect. Again, the rest of the party still needs to make the appropriate saves as normal. The party wizard telling them that the wall is an illusion does not provide proof to the other party members. There are, however, rules in Complete Scoundrel (I think) that allow for disguising which spell you are casting.
ermedic 09-07-07, 11:48 PM	There are, however, rules in Complete Scoundrel (I think) that allow for disguising which spell you are casting. That is correct. iirc, it's a metamagic feat that makes the spell being cast seem as if it were a spell from a different school.
Prince_of_Parkness 09-08-07, 12:09 PM	I cant help making this more complicated. What if a mage casts a real wall of stone and one of the PCs or an NPC says its an illusion. How does that affect the remianing PCs? Do they do their spell check normally, learning that its a wall of stone if they suceed, or does this information give them a chance of actually thinking its an illusion?
heffroncm 09-08-07, 12:25 PM	I cant help making this more complicated. What if a mage casts a real wall of stone and one of the PCs or an NPC says its an illusion. How does that affect the remianing PCs? Do they do their spell check normally, learning that its a wall of stone if they suceed, or does this information give them a chance of actually thinking its an illusion? They roll a Disbelief check, fail, and insist that it is a real wall.
Lootus 09-08-07, 07:41 PM	It would seem obvious but maybe I overlooked something. This tactic seems fairly popular. I have been reading examples of people favoring illusion magic to create things like fog or a wall of stone. If enemies in range had the Spellcraft skill wouldnt they get a test to know that the spell being cast is an illusion? If so would that simply allow a save or would it negate the illusion entirely for that person? Thanks I'm thinking that either of the below rulings would be correct in this situation: Option A No disbelief saving throws are rolled until someone interacts with the illusory fog or wall. Although a character who sees or hears the enemy cast the spell can try to identify it with Spellcraft as it's being cast, they can't be 100% certain they are right (they may have failed their roll, or the enemy may be disguising his spell somehow). They can say to themselves (and their friends) "He just cast Illusory Wall!", however neither that character nor anyone else can verify it's an illusion (i.e. receive a disbelief save) until they see someone else interact with it, or interact with it themselves. That information should be enough to guide the actions of that character's companions, so long as they trust he knows what he's talking about. ("The wall's an illusion - just run right through it" ... ka-thud! "Whoops, guess not!") In any case, they can't disbelieve it (to see what's inside or on the other side) until they interact with it (or see another interact with it). Option B The character who uses Spellcraft to identify the illusion as it is cast gets an immediate save, then, if he succeeded, the other PCs in the party each get a save at +4.
Traevanon 09-08-07, 10:51 PM	Okay, I think I see the issue. Is a successful spellcraft check "proof" that an illusion either being cast or in place is what it is? I suppose a DM could say that it is not and grant the successful creature just +4 on his saving throw when he interacts with the illusion. It seems a bit weak though. Generally people know when they fail a check and disguising your spell is rare enough that it aught to be able to be ignored until evidence shows otherwise. The fact that Detect Magic can pierce illusions is just a huge oversight in my mind. WotC should have fixed that long ago, but they havent so I suppose its left to the DM to do so. All Illusions in my campaign represent themselves to detect magic as what they seem to be (an illusiory wall has no aura), rather than illusion magic. Still, raw states otherwise so I just mention it as an aside. Regardless illusions would still be decent against most low intelligence monsters, even using strict RaW. To Prince of Parkness: As far as I know no check is necessary to prove that a normal object is *not* a spell, however it would be reasonable to use a spellcraft check with a DC of what the illusion *would* be to "prove" (see above) that the wall is nothing other than an ordinary wall.
Some_call_me_Tim 09-09-07, 12:41 AM	The fact that Detect Magic can pierce illusions is just a huge oversight in my mind. WotC should have fixed that long ago, but they havent so I suppose its left to the DM to do so. All Illusions in my campaign represent themselves to detect magic as what they seem to be (an illusiory wall has no aura), rather than illusion magic. Still, raw states otherwise so I just mention it as an aside.I think a better alternative is to grant a saving throw when detect magic is cast. You make the save you detect illusion, you fail you detect what the illusion appears to be. I would say that casting detect magic on an illusion should count as "study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion."
heffroncm 09-09-07, 12:48 AM	I think for me, Spellcraft and Detect Magic will allow a save with +4 DC. You know there is an illusion there, you may even know which illusion, but you can't be certain that something is an illusion. Even if you see an aura of illusion around the Celestial Tiger, you can't be sure that it's an illusion, and not just masked to look different. So, without the kind of conclusive proof you need to automatically disbelieve, you end up with the +4 bonus as you know something's not right.
runestar 09-09-07, 10:07 PM	A spot check of dc80 will automatically see through any illusion, IIRC.:)
The_Ditto 09-10-07, 04:41 PM	There are, however, rules in Complete Scoundrel (I think) that allow for disguising which spell you are casting. I will have to look at those then .. :tiphat:
Lootus 09-10-07, 11:46 PM	At first I was skeptical about Detect Magic and illusions as well, but I'm ok with it now. Glamers and shadows make plenty of sense to register a magic aura. Figments are supposed to be clever enough so that others don't think to use Detect on them when they see them (if they do, hooray), while figments viewed from far away are out of range - and a character still needs to make a Will save to disbelieve a figment viewed with Detect Magic if they don't interact with it. Patterns that are instantaneous don't apply, and ones that aren't (not sure if there are any) are like figments, above. I don't think Detect Magic should work on a phantasm. Here's another Spellcraft/Illusion question - What happens if a character with Spellcraft has an instantaneous illusion cast on them (like a pattern), and they recognize the spell being cast? Do they get a +4 to their Will save?