Improved Buckler Use and Two-Handed Weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Improved Buckler Use and Two-Handed Weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Martryn
07-29-07, 12:41 AM Will someone benefit from Improved Buckler Use while wielding a 2-handed weapon? A member of my group is asking (which is funny, since he's playing a Tempest) but I can see it both ways.
KrisTheGreat
07-29-07, 02:00 AM i would have to say no two handed weapons have enough of an advantage on the smaller weapons with power attack that to allow them a sheild bonus would be un blancing to the poor sucker that is trying to put sheilds to use even though two weapon fighting or two handed weapons are far better
danyc
07-29-07, 04:43 AM It definitely works for dual wielding.

2h, the way the feat is worded, is iffy (IE intro text says off-hand weapon, feat text says 'weapon in your off hand' which could maybe mean weapon in main hand AND off hand at the same time... who knows). It seems like a no, but a real language-lawyer could argue the other way.

Power wise, TWF and 2-hand fighting styles are supposed to be largely equal, so its probably not going to make your game explode if you allow it.
Kouk
07-29-07, 07:32 PM People are split on this issue, but I believe the majority believes it is legal for 2-handed weapons.

There was an interesting point brought up about a +3 animated heavy shield costing about the same as a +5 buckler, but without the -1 to attack. I haven't gone over the numbers myself, but if the costs are comparable, getting a strong buckler would actually be a detriment rather than a floating shield.
StevenO
07-29-07, 08:59 PM The feat allows one to make attacks involving the buckler arm without losing the buckler's AC. It doesn't matter if that hand is holding its own weapon (TWF) or helping the other hand hold a weapon (2HF). If it didn't prevent the AC loss for either of these it would be worth less. If you'd say it only works for TWF then it should also work on TWF-double weapon, which is by RAW mechanically the same thing, but then you hold that double weapon with two hands so you should keep the AC bonus when wielding any Two-handed weapon.
Andrew
07-29-07, 11:40 PM Indeed, it should work. The letter of the rules is not as clear as they could be, but it leaves two possibilities: Either wielding a two-handed weapon counts as wielding a weapon in your off hand, and thus Improved Buckler Defense provides its listed bonus, or you don't count as wielding a weapon in your off hand and can always keep your buckler's AC bonus when wielding a two-handed weapon.

Either way, you keep the -1 on attack rolls.
nobodez_here
03-28-08, 02:14 AM Still, it's only 5%, but the bonus to AC makes it a wash (+6 w/ the buckler vs. +5 with the animated shield). Plus, you don't have the pesky ACP to deal with (all things being equal).

Plus, I think a raging barbarian with a small metal disk strapped to his arm (and decorated appropriately) looks better in the mind's eye than one with a floating kite shield next to him. And a feat giving you +6 AC for a -1 attack is a fair trade.
heffroncm
03-30-08, 06:38 AM I do believe it would work. If a player wanted this feat to work for his character, I would allow it in a heartbeat. As has been said, it's actually detrimental to the character.

Still, it's only 5%, but the bonus to AC makes it a wash (+6 w/ the buckler vs. +5 with the animated shield). Plus, you don't have the pesky ACP to deal with (all things being equal).

Plus, I think a raging barbarian with a small metal disk strapped to his arm (and decorated appropriately) looks better in the mind's eye than one with a floating kite shield next to him. And a feat giving you +6 AC for a -1 attack is a fair trade.

On the note of worth, never do with a feat what you can do with money. This feat gets you +1 AC for -1 Attack over an animated shield of the same value. The Animated Shield can in time be upgraded to +7 ac, while the buckler caps at +6. I do agree that it is a shame that mechanics do not support more styles.
Cartigan
03-30-08, 10:46 AM Will someone benefit from Improved Buckler Use while wielding a 2-handed weapon? A member of my group is asking (which is funny, since he's playing a Tempest) but I can see it both ways.
Is the Tempest actually using a two-hander?

THF doesn't have an off-hand weapon and the feat is rather specific that the shield bonus stays when attacking with an offhand weapon..
Merestil Haye
03-30-08, 10:58 AM The language of the feat mimics the language of buckler use with weapons in both hands exactly. Therefore they are both applicable or they are both not applicable.

If you rule that the IBD feat does not benefit 2-handed weapon use, you are also ruling that 2-handed weapon use does not deprive you of the buckler's shield bonus in the first place. Which means that 2WF needs even more feats to be a viable fighting style than 2HW use.

For that reason, I rule that "HW use does deprive you of the Buckler's shield bonus, and thus IBD does enable you to retain that bonus.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Martryn 07-29-07, 12:41 AM	Will someone benefit from Improved Buckler Use while wielding a 2-handed weapon? A member of my group is asking (which is funny, since he's playing a Tempest) but I can see it both ways.
KrisTheGreat 07-29-07, 02:00 AM	i would have to say no two handed weapons have enough of an advantage on the smaller weapons with power attack that to allow them a sheild bonus would be un blancing to the poor sucker that is trying to put sheilds to use even though two weapon fighting or two handed weapons are far better
danyc 07-29-07, 04:43 AM	It definitely works for dual wielding. 2h, the way the feat is worded, is iffy (IE intro text says off-hand weapon, feat text says 'weapon in your off hand' which could maybe mean weapon in main hand AND off hand at the same time... who knows). It seems like a no, but a real language-lawyer could argue the other way. Power wise, TWF and 2-hand fighting styles are supposed to be largely equal, so its probably not going to make your game explode if you allow it.
Kouk 07-29-07, 07:32 PM	People are split on this issue, but I believe the majority believes it is legal for 2-handed weapons. There was an interesting point brought up about a +3 animated heavy shield costing about the same as a +5 buckler, but without the -1 to attack. I haven't gone over the numbers myself, but if the costs are comparable, getting a strong buckler would actually be a detriment rather than a floating shield.
StevenO 07-29-07, 08:59 PM	The feat allows one to make attacks involving the buckler arm without losing the buckler's AC. It doesn't matter if that hand is holding its own weapon (TWF) or helping the other hand hold a weapon (2HF). If it didn't prevent the AC loss for either of these it would be worth less. If you'd say it only works for TWF then it should also work on TWF-double weapon, which is by RAW mechanically the same thing, but then you hold that double weapon with two hands so you should keep the AC bonus when wielding any Two-handed weapon.
Andrew 07-29-07, 11:40 PM	Indeed, it should work. The letter of the rules is not as clear as they could be, but it leaves two possibilities: Either wielding a two-handed weapon counts as wielding a weapon in your off hand, and thus Improved Buckler Defense provides its listed bonus, or you don't count as wielding a weapon in your off hand and can always keep your buckler's AC bonus when wielding a two-handed weapon. Either way, you keep the -1 on attack rolls.
nobodez_here 03-28-08, 02:14 AM	Still, it's only 5%, but the bonus to AC makes it a wash (+6 w/ the buckler vs. +5 with the animated shield). Plus, you don't have the pesky ACP to deal with (all things being equal). Plus, I think a raging barbarian with a small metal disk strapped to his arm (and decorated appropriately) looks better in the mind's eye than one with a floating kite shield next to him. And a feat giving you +6 AC for a -1 attack is a fair trade.
heffroncm 03-30-08, 06:38 AM	I do believe it would work. If a player wanted this feat to work for his character, I would allow it in a heartbeat. As has been said, it's actually detrimental to the character. Still, it's only 5%, but the bonus to AC makes it a wash (+6 w/ the buckler vs. +5 with the animated shield). Plus, you don't have the pesky ACP to deal with (all things being equal). Plus, I think a raging barbarian with a small metal disk strapped to his arm (and decorated appropriately) looks better in the mind's eye than one with a floating kite shield next to him. And a feat giving you +6 AC for a -1 attack is a fair trade. On the note of worth, never do with a feat what you can do with money. This feat gets you +1 AC for -1 Attack over an animated shield of the same value. The Animated Shield can in time be upgraded to +7 ac, while the buckler caps at +6. I do agree that it is a shame that mechanics do not support more styles.
Cartigan 03-30-08, 10:46 AM	Will someone benefit from Improved Buckler Use while wielding a 2-handed weapon? A member of my group is asking (which is funny, since he's playing a Tempest) but I can see it both ways. Is the Tempest actually using a two-hander? THF doesn't have an off-hand weapon and the feat is rather specific that the shield bonus stays when attacking with an offhand weapon..
Merestil Haye 03-30-08, 10:58 AM	The language of the feat mimics the language of buckler use with weapons in both hands exactly. Therefore they are both applicable or they are both not applicable. If you rule that the IBD feat does not benefit 2-handed weapon use, you are also ruling that 2-handed weapon use does not deprive you of the buckler's shield bonus in the first place. Which means that 2WF needs even more feats to be a viable fighting style than 2HW use. For that reason, I rule that "HW use does deprive you of the Buckler's shield bonus, and thus IBD does enable you to retain that bonus.