Improved Natural Attack with Superior Unarmed strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Improved Natural Attack with Superior Unarmed strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Uxkurik_Malsvar
09-01-07, 11:21 AM first do these two feats stack?

Improved nat atk Pg 304 MM

Superior Unarmed Strike Pg33 Tome of Battle - Book of nine swords

if they do. my wifes lvl 8 monk with a 1d10 increases to 2d8 with INA but if she later took the SUS it would first supersede INA and bring her to 2d6 then INA would put her up to 3d6.

secondly have i staked correctly assuming they do?
heffroncm
09-01-07, 11:45 AM Well, Superior Unarmed Strike reads, "If you are a monk, instead deal damage as a monk four levels higher." This would mean that when you referance the chart to find the Monk's Unarmed Strike Damage, you would check the listing 4 levels above where you are at. After this, you have your dice, and apply Improved Natural Attack.

The real question is, why does she use the Superior Unarmed Strike feat when she can get a Monk's Belt which gives a 5 level increase to both damage and AC for less than half the wealth of an 8th level character?
Uxkurik_Malsvar
09-01-07, 12:01 PM because she had the poverty feat from Book of exalted deeds?

you sure she can legally stack those feats?
Einvaldurinn_mikli
09-01-07, 12:05 PM because she had the poverty feat from Book of exalted deeds?

you sure she can legally stack those feats?

She can.
heffroncm
09-01-07, 12:09 PM There's nothing saying they don't interact in that matter, and if you take each feat at it's wording, you end up applying Improved Natural Attack to a monk of her Monk Level +4.

VoP is a great feat early on. She might need some help keeping up in the high teens, if the rest of the party is good at optimization.
Someone
09-01-07, 12:29 PM Assuming the monk is medium-sized, you would look up the damage of a large monk, 4 levels higher.

So yes, 3d6.
Uxkurik_Malsvar
09-01-07, 12:59 PM VoP is a great feat early on. She might need some help keeping up in the high teens, if the rest of the party is good at optimization.

what the VoP feat?
heffroncm
09-01-07, 01:02 PM Vow of Poverty. Past 12 or 14, you get less out of Vow of Poverty than you would gear, and much less in the way of situational or other interesting abilities like Fly, Water Breathing, Freedom of Movement, Planar Travel, and etc.
Uxkurik_Malsvar
09-01-07, 01:15 PM good point. ill have to run that by her
Sunic_Flames
09-01-07, 01:37 PM Couldn't you take SUA, INA, and a monk's belt? Well, barring VoP that is. Then you'd do damage as a large monk of level +9.
heffroncm
09-01-07, 01:50 PM Couldn't you take SUA, INA, and a monk's belt? Well, barring VoP that is. Then you'd do damage as a large monk of level +9.

Definitely a grey area on this one. The Monks Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike both say, "Do damage as a monk X levels higher." There'd be no question if it said, "Add X to Monk Level when figuring Unarmed Damage." As it stands, they technically don't stack. So, ask your DM.
Kaz the DM
09-01-07, 05:02 PM SUA, INA, and monk's belt do not stack. As for the SUA and INA you will get more if you drop the SUA and take a monk's belt ... +4 vs. +5.

Best,
Kaz
heffroncm
09-01-07, 06:31 PM SUA, INA, and monk's belt do not stack. As for the SUA and INA you will get more if you drop the SUA and take a monk's belt ... +4 vs. +5.

Best,
Kaz

The player in question has taken Vow of Poverty.
CelineSSauve
09-02-07, 12:00 PM because she had the poverty feat from Book of exalted deeds?

you sure she can legally stack those feats?
Not according to this article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a

Natural Attacks and Unarmed Attacks are distinctly different. (The article's from early 2007 so it should be talking about 3.5 and not 3rd.) Then again, I found that article a source of multiple headaches personally...
heffroncm
09-02-07, 12:32 PM From the SRD at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike:

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Feats do count as effects.
Uxkurik_Malsvar
09-02-07, 12:57 PM so a monk not restricted by VoP could place a plus 2 enhancement on her body being that it states her whole body is a weapon? just for argument sake.
stackmachine
09-02-07, 01:45 PM so a monk not restricted by VoP could place a plus 2 enhancement on her body being that it states her whole body is a weapon? just for argument sake.

that's right. every monk can.

greater magic weapon-spell from the wizzy/ cleric is one way to buff your monk with VoP.

an amulet of mighty fists (DMG,p.246) is for the rest.

behold the magical head-butt! :)
heffroncm
09-02-07, 01:50 PM Better than the Amulet of Mighty Fists is an Amulet of Natural Attack from Savage Species. I forget the exact name, but it has a MUCH better cost progression (equal to that of a weapon) and allows you to stack on weapon abilities. +1 Flaming Burst Shocking Burst Acidic Burst Icy Burst Headbutt!
calronmoonflower
09-02-07, 11:15 PM Improved Natural Attack and Superior Unarmed Strike stack in this case because they are actually two septate effects.

Improved Natural Attack increases the damage of a natural weapon.

Superior Unarmed Strike makes your unarmed strike deal damage of a higher level monk.

If they didn't stack neither would the damage increase that a monk gets for higher levels.

Vow of Poverty increases your unarmed strike damage as well, but is a different effect as it too does so in a different way than either Improved Natural Attack or even Superior Unarmed Strike .

By the same track of though that says that Improved Natural Attack and Superior Unarmed Strike do not stack would mean that Vow of Poverty's damage increase wouldn't stack either.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uxkurik_Malsvar 09-01-07, 11:21 AM	first do these two feats stack? Improved nat atk Pg 304 MM Superior Unarmed Strike Pg33 Tome of Battle - Book of nine swords if they do. my wifes lvl 8 monk with a 1d10 increases to 2d8 with INA but if she later took the SUS it would first supersede INA and bring her to 2d6 then INA would put her up to 3d6. secondly have i staked correctly assuming they do?
heffroncm 09-01-07, 11:45 AM	Well, Superior Unarmed Strike reads, "If you are a monk, instead deal damage as a monk four levels higher." This would mean that when you referance the chart to find the Monk's Unarmed Strike Damage, you would check the listing 4 levels above where you are at. After this, you have your dice, and apply Improved Natural Attack. The real question is, why does she use the Superior Unarmed Strike feat when she can get a Monk's Belt which gives a 5 level increase to both damage and AC for less than half the wealth of an 8th level character?
Uxkurik_Malsvar 09-01-07, 12:01 PM	because she had the poverty feat from Book of exalted deeds? you sure she can legally stack those feats?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-01-07, 12:05 PM	because she had the poverty feat from Book of exalted deeds? you sure she can legally stack those feats? She can.
heffroncm 09-01-07, 12:09 PM	There's nothing saying they don't interact in that matter, and if you take each feat at it's wording, you end up applying Improved Natural Attack to a monk of her Monk Level +4. VoP is a great feat early on. She might need some help keeping up in the high teens, if the rest of the party is good at optimization.
Someone 09-01-07, 12:29 PM	Assuming the monk is medium-sized, you would look up the damage of a large monk, 4 levels higher. So yes, 3d6.
Uxkurik_Malsvar 09-01-07, 12:59 PM	VoP is a great feat early on. She might need some help keeping up in the high teens, if the rest of the party is good at optimization. what the VoP feat?
heffroncm 09-01-07, 01:02 PM	Vow of Poverty. Past 12 or 14, you get less out of Vow of Poverty than you would gear, and much less in the way of situational or other interesting abilities like Fly, Water Breathing, Freedom of Movement, Planar Travel, and etc.
Uxkurik_Malsvar 09-01-07, 01:15 PM	good point. ill have to run that by her
Sunic_Flames 09-01-07, 01:37 PM	Couldn't you take SUA, INA, and a monk's belt? Well, barring VoP that is. Then you'd do damage as a large monk of level +9.
heffroncm 09-01-07, 01:50 PM	Couldn't you take SUA, INA, and a monk's belt? Well, barring VoP that is. Then you'd do damage as a large monk of level +9. Definitely a grey area on this one. The Monks Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike both say, "Do damage as a monk X levels higher." There'd be no question if it said, "Add X to Monk Level when figuring Unarmed Damage." As it stands, they technically don't stack. So, ask your DM.
Kaz the DM 09-01-07, 05:02 PM	SUA, INA, and monk's belt do not stack. As for the SUA and INA you will get more if you drop the SUA and take a monk's belt ... +4 vs. +5. Best, Kaz
heffroncm 09-01-07, 06:31 PM	SUA, INA, and monk's belt do not stack. As for the SUA and INA you will get more if you drop the SUA and take a monk's belt ... +4 vs. +5. Best, Kaz The player in question has taken Vow of Poverty.
CelineSSauve 09-02-07, 12:00 PM	because she had the poverty feat from Book of exalted deeds? you sure she can legally stack those feats? Not according to this article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a Natural Attacks and Unarmed Attacks are distinctly different. (The article's from early 2007 so it should be talking about 3.5 and not 3rd.) Then again, I found that article a source of multiple headaches personally...
heffroncm 09-02-07, 12:32 PM	From the SRD at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike: A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Feats do count as effects.
Uxkurik_Malsvar 09-02-07, 12:57 PM	so a monk not restricted by VoP could place a plus 2 enhancement on her body being that it states her whole body is a weapon? just for argument sake.
stackmachine 09-02-07, 01:45 PM	so a monk not restricted by VoP could place a plus 2 enhancement on her body being that it states her whole body is a weapon? just for argument sake. that's right. every monk can. greater magic weapon-spell from the wizzy/ cleric is one way to buff your monk with VoP. an amulet of mighty fists (DMG,p.246) is for the rest. behold the magical head-butt! :)
heffroncm 09-02-07, 01:50 PM	Better than the Amulet of Mighty Fists is an Amulet of Natural Attack from Savage Species. I forget the exact name, but it has a MUCH better cost progression (equal to that of a weapon) and allows you to stack on weapon abilities. +1 Flaming Burst Shocking Burst Acidic Burst Icy Burst Headbutt!
calronmoonflower 09-02-07, 11:15 PM	Improved Natural Attack and Superior Unarmed Strike stack in this case because they are actually two septate effects. Improved Natural Attack increases the damage of a natural weapon. Superior Unarmed Strike makes your unarmed strike deal damage of a higher level monk. If they didn't stack neither would the damage increase that a monk gets for higher levels. Vow of Poverty increases your unarmed strike damage as well, but is a different effect as it too does so in a different way than either Improved Natural Attack or even Superior Unarmed Strike . By the same track of though that says that Improved Natural Attack and Superior Unarmed Strike do not stack would mean that Vow of Poverty's damage increase wouldn't stack either.