Improved Turning and Command [Archive] - Wizards Community

Improved Turning and Command [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tos_shai_hulud
03-10-08, 10:27 AM Improved Turning [General]
Prerequisite
Ability to turn or rebuke creatures.

Benefit
You turn or rebuke creatures as if you were one level higher than you are in the class that grants you the ability.

A 3rd level cleric with the Fire and Plant domains runs into an Azer. The cleric has taken Improved Turning. He attempts to rebuke the Azer. The Azer has two hit dice, so ordinarily, a third level cleric would rebuke the Azer, not command him. Because the cleric has Improved Turning, is he treated as a 4th level cleric for the purpose of commanding the fire creature? Can the third level cleric have an azer following him around at his command?

Questions about commanding creatures, alignment, and intelligence:

1. Assuming the Azer were commanded, would it be angry that it was no longer in control of itself? Would it fight the control in any way? Is it aware that it is under the command of the cleric? Or is it pleased to be commanded?

2. Is commanding any creature considered an evil act? What happens if the cleric doesn't realize he has commanded it? A quick change of scenario, what if this were a cleric 4/Paladin 1 who commanded the fire creature? Would that be enough of an evil act to strip the paladin of his powers (if it is indeed an evil act)?

3. Same as above, but what if the cleric is not intelligent enough to realize that he has commanded the creature? For instance, can Azers speak common or only understand it? The cleric cannot speak Ignan. Would the cleric even realize that the Azer was following his every command or would he believe that his god has helped the creature see the dire need to help the cleric? I guess I am asking if clerics have an innate understanding of their abilities.
tos_shai_hulud
03-10-08, 12:17 PM Couple more questions:

Does Improved Turning increase the number of hit dice of creatures you can command? And if the cleric is an evil cleric with both the fire domain and the plant domain, would he have three separate pools of creatures he can command, his cleric level worth of hit dice of undead, his cleric level worth of hit dice of fire creatures, and his cleric level worth of hit dice of plant creatures?
mvincent
03-10-08, 12:19 PM Because the cleric has Improved Turning, is he treated as a 4th level cleric for the purpose of commanding the fire creature?Yes

Can the third level cleric have an azer following him around at his command?Yes

would it be angry that it was no longer in control of itself? Would it fight the control in any way? Would it fight the control in any way?Subject to DM interpretation, but likely not (at least not initially). Rebuked creatures cower "as if in awe" (which denotes more respect than loathing)

Is it aware that it is under the command of the cleric?Yes

Or is it pleased to be commanded?Probably (depending on how it's treated of course).

Is commanding any creature considered an evil act?Not inherently, no.

What happens if the cleric doesn't realize he has commanded it?He probably should (i.e. a DM shouldn't keep this a secret from the player).

Would that be enough of an evil act to strip the paladin of his powersNo.

what if the cleric is not intelligent enough to realize that he has commanded the creature?As mentioned, the DM shouldn't keep this a secret from the player. As you surmised, Clerics have an innate understanding of their abilities.

can Azers speak commonYes
tos_shai_hulud
03-10-08, 12:24 PM Awesome, that is exactly what I was hoping for! Thank you mvincent!
tos_shai_hulud
03-10-08, 12:49 PM Oh, and another question that has likely been answered before in other threads:

Let's assume that the cleric took Improved Turning as his first level feat, then a feat that uses Turn/Rebuke expenditures to power it as his third level feat. Can the cleric use his turn/rebuke attempts from his granted domain powers to power his feat? For example:

The cleric has a Charisma of 16. This grants him 6 turns/day per source of turning (undead, fire, and plant, in the case of the cleric listed above). That is a total of 18 turn attempts per day. Could the 3rd level cleric take Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell and use 14 of his turn attempts to turn two of his spells into persistent spells? If one of those spells is Eagle's Splendor, he gains +4 to his Charisma, plus, he gains an additional 6 turn attempts (2 turn attempts per source of turning), which would give him enough turn attempts to power another Persistent Spell (like Owl's Wisdom to grant him bonus spell slots and Bull's Strength to give him the effect of a Belt of Giant's Strength +4).

Is my understanding correct?
Finarin Panjoro
03-10-08, 05:04 PM I would think not. I believe all such feats refer to turn undead attempts, not simply turning attempts.

Even if they don't specifically state undead, I suspect that is the intention of the feats as I have a hard time imagining that the designers meant for it to be two or three times as useful for one cleric as it is for another.
mvincent
03-10-08, 05:16 PM From the 3.5 FAQ (if desired):
"Can the turning abilities granted by the Air, Earth,
Fire, Plant, and Water domains be used to power Divine
Metamagic (Complete Divine, page 80) or other divine
feats?
No. Unless stated otherwise, a divine feat requires (and
may be powered only by) the ability to turn or rebuke undead.
Some feats (such as Elemental Smiting, on page 81 of
Complete Divine) use elemental turning (rather than undead
turning); these are specific exceptions to the general rule."
tos_shai_hulud
03-11-08, 12:17 AM Couple more questions:

Does Improved Turning increase the number of hit dice of creatures you can command? Would my third level cleric be able to command 12 hd of creatures (4 hd of each type)? Or are they pooled together?
Tedronai
03-11-08, 03:58 AM Couple more questions:

Does Improved Turning increase the number of hit dice of creatures you can command? Would my third level cleric be able to command 12 hd of creatures (4 hd of each type)? Or are they pooled together?

Since each is a different source of the ability to rebuke creatures that do not stack with each other, yes, they would allow you to command a total of 12 HD of creatures.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tos_shai_hulud 03-10-08, 10:27 AM	Improved Turning [General] Prerequisite Ability to turn or rebuke creatures. Benefit You turn or rebuke creatures as if you were one level higher than you are in the class that grants you the ability. A 3rd level cleric with the Fire and Plant domains runs into an Azer. The cleric has taken Improved Turning. He attempts to rebuke the Azer. The Azer has two hit dice, so ordinarily, a third level cleric would rebuke the Azer, not command him. Because the cleric has Improved Turning, is he treated as a 4th level cleric for the purpose of commanding the fire creature? Can the third level cleric have an azer following him around at his command? Questions about commanding creatures, alignment, and intelligence: 1. Assuming the Azer were commanded, would it be angry that it was no longer in control of itself? Would it fight the control in any way? Is it aware that it is under the command of the cleric? Or is it pleased to be commanded? 2. Is commanding any creature considered an evil act? What happens if the cleric doesn't realize he has commanded it? A quick change of scenario, what if this were a cleric 4/Paladin 1 who commanded the fire creature? Would that be enough of an evil act to strip the paladin of his powers (if it is indeed an evil act)? 3. Same as above, but what if the cleric is not intelligent enough to realize that he has commanded the creature? For instance, can Azers speak common or only understand it? The cleric cannot speak Ignan. Would the cleric even realize that the Azer was following his every command or would he believe that his god has helped the creature see the dire need to help the cleric? I guess I am asking if clerics have an innate understanding of their abilities.
tos_shai_hulud 03-10-08, 12:17 PM	Couple more questions: Does Improved Turning increase the number of hit dice of creatures you can command? And if the cleric is an evil cleric with both the fire domain and the plant domain, would he have three separate pools of creatures he can command, his cleric level worth of hit dice of undead, his cleric level worth of hit dice of fire creatures, and his cleric level worth of hit dice of plant creatures?
mvincent 03-10-08, 12:19 PM	Because the cleric has Improved Turning, is he treated as a 4th level cleric for the purpose of commanding the fire creature?Yes Can the third level cleric have an azer following him around at his command?Yes would it be angry that it was no longer in control of itself? Would it fight the control in any way? Would it fight the control in any way?Subject to DM interpretation, but likely not (at least not initially). Rebuked creatures cower "as if in awe" (which denotes more respect than loathing) Is it aware that it is under the command of the cleric?Yes Or is it pleased to be commanded?Probably (depending on how it's treated of course). Is commanding any creature considered an evil act?Not inherently, no. What happens if the cleric doesn't realize he has commanded it?He probably should (i.e. a DM shouldn't keep this a secret from the player). Would that be enough of an evil act to strip the paladin of his powersNo. what if the cleric is not intelligent enough to realize that he has commanded the creature?As mentioned, the DM shouldn't keep this a secret from the player. As you surmised, Clerics have an innate understanding of their abilities. can Azers speak commonYes
tos_shai_hulud 03-10-08, 12:24 PM	Awesome, that is exactly what I was hoping for! Thank you mvincent!
tos_shai_hulud 03-10-08, 12:49 PM	Oh, and another question that has likely been answered before in other threads: Let's assume that the cleric took Improved Turning as his first level feat, then a feat that uses Turn/Rebuke expenditures to power it as his third level feat. Can the cleric use his turn/rebuke attempts from his granted domain powers to power his feat? For example: The cleric has a Charisma of 16. This grants him 6 turns/day per source of turning (undead, fire, and plant, in the case of the cleric listed above). That is a total of 18 turn attempts per day. Could the 3rd level cleric take Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell and use 14 of his turn attempts to turn two of his spells into persistent spells? If one of those spells is Eagle's Splendor, he gains +4 to his Charisma, plus, he gains an additional 6 turn attempts (2 turn attempts per source of turning), which would give him enough turn attempts to power another Persistent Spell (like Owl's Wisdom to grant him bonus spell slots and Bull's Strength to give him the effect of a Belt of Giant's Strength +4). Is my understanding correct?
Finarin Panjoro 03-10-08, 05:04 PM	I would think not. I believe all such feats refer to turn undead attempts, not simply turning attempts. Even if they don't specifically state undead, I suspect that is the intention of the feats as I have a hard time imagining that the designers meant for it to be two or three times as useful for one cleric as it is for another.
mvincent 03-10-08, 05:16 PM	From the 3.5 FAQ (if desired): "Can the turning abilities granted by the Air, Earth, Fire, Plant, and Water domains be used to power Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine, page 80) or other divine feats? No. Unless stated otherwise, a divine feat requires (and may be powered only by) the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Some feats (such as Elemental Smiting, on page 81 of Complete Divine) use elemental turning (rather than undead turning); these are specific exceptions to the general rule."
tos_shai_hulud 03-11-08, 12:17 AM	Couple more questions: Does Improved Turning increase the number of hit dice of creatures you can command? Would my third level cleric be able to command 12 hd of creatures (4 hd of each type)? Or are they pooled together?
Tedronai 03-11-08, 03:58 AM	Couple more questions: Does Improved Turning increase the number of hit dice of creatures you can command? Would my third level cleric be able to command 12 hd of creatures (4 hd of each type)? Or are they pooled together? Since each is a different source of the ability to rebuke creatures that do not stack with each other, yes, they would allow you to command a total of 12 HD of creatures.