Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cowczar 03-02-08, 11:37 AM	So, yesterday, the other player in my two-person gaming group made an adventure. So, my character (Duskblade 5) had successfully convinced the three Ettercaps that he was a god, and needed their help to open a gate. So the other player (modified Ranger 5... loses several bonuses, animal companion, etc for sneak attack and other goodies) and an NPC (Fighter 5 or 6... not sure) were also there. So, I had lined them up, and using languages other than Common, communicated with my two allies so the Ettercaps couldn't understand (I got a natural 20 on my Knowledge (arcana) check, so I knew all about them in character). I then proceeded to cast (deep voice, the way I always do it) Kelgore's Fire Bolt. We then had to roll Initiative. The problem is, the Ettercaps rolled highest. Even though they were friendly, they still attacked me before I made any sign that I was going to cast a damaging spell. Now, they were either neutral towards me or friendly. I had offered them power and such. So did they count as aware of me in combat? But the big question is, I was right in assuming that I start combat, regardless of Initiative order? I told the DM rather than looking up the rules, to just make a ruling and move on. He chose the opposite of what I thought. So... interpretations?
Salla 03-02-08, 11:50 AM	Everybody is aware of one another, so there's no surprise round, so it becomes a straight initiative roll. Acknowledgement of hostility isn't an issue; if they know you're there, there's no surprise round. Basically, you started casting and they reacted faster than you were anticipating. The DM made the correct (by the rules) call.
weasel0 03-02-08, 02:31 PM	I'm gonna disagree on this. The DM here metagamed out his arse. Sure the rules were followed fine, however, he was using OoG knowledge to basically hit back first. What should have happened here is everyone rolled init, the Ettercaps used their init to keep doing whatever it was they were already doing, then you guys go while they're flatfooted to you. One other point.... when was the last time you ever heard of someone attacking a being they thought was a god?
Khadmus 03-02-08, 02:36 PM	I'm gonna disagree on this. The DM here metagamed out his arse. Sure the rules were followed fine, however, he was using OoG knowledge to basically hit back first. What should have happened here is everyone rolled init, the Ettercaps used their init to keep doing whatever it was they were already doing, then you guys go while they're flatfooted to you. One other point.... when was the last time you ever heard of someone attacking a being they thought was a god? Yes. Yes. When the "god" openly attacks them; and opens up with a spell as weak as Kelgore's Fire Bolt.
Cowczar 03-02-08, 02:41 PM	It was just a way of opening combat, rather than charging in with a +10 (+12 if I'm actually charging) attack bonus with my +1 Flaming Bastard Sword (1d10+1d6+5 Str Bonus). Besides, I just like to announce, "Kelgore's Fire Bolt!". And seeing as I'm level 5, and it does 5d6 damage, automatically hitting, with Reflex half, that's really not a bad spell at all. Colour Spray may be more effective, but my character would not use that to start a combat.
Khadmus 03-02-08, 02:46 PM	5d6 with Reflex half? For a god? I'd expect save-or-dies, most of the d6s I own, or really flashy effects. But that's not the important part - the important part is that your DM metagamed.
Cowczar 03-02-08, 03:08 PM	Well, Ettercaps have Intelligence 6. That's pretty bad. And they previously bowed to me, and obeyed me. When I was preparing to cast a spell, they attacked. They were annihilated, but that's beside the point. Anyway, Khadmus, we're off topic. Sooooo... EDIT: I had used my Arcane Attunement spells to scare them. Those are pretty flashy. Dancing Lights, Flare, etc...
Khadmus 03-02-08, 03:52 PM	Yeah. 0-level spells can be surprisingly powerful.
Tedronai 03-02-08, 11:07 PM	If the action that began the combat was you casting a spell, then you finish casting that spell before they get their turn, regardless of initiative. If you had coordinated with your allies to do so, then they could be taking an action at the same time. Sounds like a Surprise Round to me. And if the DM insists that there is no Surprise Round (which, while in his rights, and technically by RAW, is utterly stupid IMHO), and that the creatures act before you even finish casting the spell, then they use their turns to continue whatever they were doing, because having them attack you is complete metagaming, as they are neutral at best and no hostilities have been initiated. So in that instance, you not only get to act first, but you get a full round action in which to do so, rather than simply a standard action.
Orenmir 03-03-08, 11:07 AM	I would give the Ettercaps either an Int check or Spellcraft check (or both) to spot the caster casting a spell at them. If they succeed, then they notice that they are getting attacked and no surprise round happens -- initiative occurs normally. If they fail, then they don't know what's going on and the caster only gets to act in the surprise round. It could be done in other ways, but this seems fair to me. If the Ettercaps are stupid and have never seen anyone cast a spell before, they simply aren't going to know that they are about to get smacked with a bolt -- and they wouldn't act before the spell. They'd be very confused.
nightwing 03-03-08, 02:23 PM	It's simple. The ettercaps begin the combat surprised because, although they are aware of you, they are not aware of any impending danger. So, combat begins when you begin casting. You get your free action for the surprise round, then everyone goes in initiative order after that... Not complicated at all.
mvincent 03-03-08, 03:36 PM	The ettercaps begin the combat surprised because, although they are aware of you, they are not aware of any impending danger.Agreed.
PenderGrass 03-03-08, 09:33 PM	It is unlikely that an Ettercap will have spellcraft or knowledge: arcane (or any other skill that will tell him specifically that he is about to get his face blasted by a spell). So, it would likely fall to a bluff vs. sense motive situation. Your character would bluff that he wasn't really casting a harmful spell. The monsters would sense motive. If they failed a sense motive, they might just wait to see what happens - trusting what you had told them previously. If they won the skill check, they would likely realize the danger and hit you (or try to, after rolling initiative). I would refrain from allowing an automatic "surprise" maneuver without at least rolling bluffs, sense motives, spellcrafts, etc. checks. First, it cheapens the already beaten charisma stat and second it teaches people that charisma is a viable stat. :dragon: *****
weasel0 03-04-08, 04:51 AM	I would refrain from allowing an automatic "surprise" maneuver without at least rolling bluffs, sense motives, spellcrafts, etc. checks. ..... I'd disagree on the points of: they're busy doing something else(something they were ordered to do by this "god"), they've already displayed obedience/submissive behavior, and you can cast a spell anytime you want-not just in combat- and the casting time would resolve before anyone else would get to act. (I feel, IMO, any time awarded the ettercaps to react to the casting would be used up just trying to figure out what was going on and thusly not even be able to act until after whammo.... owie, me smash now.) Another way I just thought of to handle this would have been, let everyone roll init except you. You automatically get first init spot as you were the one that started the combat, and had already bluffed past the ettercaps massive intellect. This way we skip the cheap feel of the surprise round, you wouldn't feel cheated for the DM metagaming/being wacked by some strange time warp that made you cast much slower than normal, and still allows the ettercaps to respond quickly in a manner appropriate to a big brutish thing that smashes most things at will. If you thought random smashing was bad, you havn't seen one with a reason yet! ;)
Lilinthra 03-04-08, 10:51 AM	and you can cast a spell anytime you want-not just in combat- and the casting time would resolve before anyone else would get to act. I'll disagree with this. When you're using Initiative and combat rounds, everything in a round is happening simultaneously. There is no length of time associated with casting most spells beyond the description of what type of action it takes. (Obviously spells that take multiple rounds or 1 minute to cast or such are exceptions.) The entire point of rolling for Initiative is to see if an enemy sees you reaching for your spell component pouch or is able to react before you finish casting the spell (for two quick examples). If you were a player in a group trying to parley with non-friendly NPCs, how would you feel if the GM said that one of the NPCs declined by attacking the party before any of you could act and then called for initiative rolls afterwards?
Orenmir 03-04-08, 12:13 PM	If you were a player in a group trying to parley with non-friendly NPCs, how would you feel if the GM said that one of the NPCs declined by attacking the party before any of you could act and then called for initiative rolls afterwards? That would be perfectly acceptable, with some caveats... If the party spots the NPCs drawing weapons, there should be no surprise round. A sense motive vs. bluff check should be performed to determine awareness and surprise round. To give a RL example: It's real easy to punch someone in the face if they aren't paying attention or expecting it.
nightwing 03-04-08, 02:45 PM	re Pendergrass: While I am always looking for ways to make Cha more significant (I make Cha the key ability for will saves in my games, instead of Wis), in this case I disagree. The characters must have already made numerous Cha checks to pull such a fantastic story over on the ettercaps. All the bluffing and motive-sensing has already been done. The ettercaps were convinced that the characters are who they say they are, to the point of working for the PCs (to open the gate). So consider them "friendly". Also, 'caps are not smart, probably have no arcane knowledge, and thus have no way of knowing that the spell being cast is malicious until it's too late. A simple parallel example would be a party wizard casting magic missile out of the blue at the party fighter. Since the two are friendly, the fighter has no reason to suspect the wizard is about to blast him, and really no reason to suspect anything wrong. (I suppose you might make a case that the fighter has heard the wizard cast the spell before and know what it is, but he'd probably just wonder "why is he casting that spell now? Is there a monster behind me...?" The fighter is surprised when he gets a couple magic missiles to the gut, then they roll for initiative...
Khadmus 03-04-08, 05:56 PM	Ok. LEt us assume that the initiative is as follows: Ettercap 1 Ettercap 2 Duskblade Ettercap 3 Everyone Else Ettercap 1 takes initiative, and continues to do what he has been doing - since the Duskblade has not yet taken an action and there is no apparent threat. Same with Ettercap 2. Then, the Duskblade acts and the people in combat are aware that battle has started. Therefore, ettercap 3 can now react.
jaspercrey 03-05-08, 07:41 AM	Ok. LEt us assume that the initiative is as follows: Ettercap 1 Ettercap 2 Duskblade Ettercap 3 Everyone Else Ettercap 1 takes initiative, and continues to do what he has been doing - since the Duskblade has not yet taken an action and there is no apparent threat. Same with Ettercap 2. Then, the Duskblade acts and the people in combat are aware that battle has started. Therefore, ettercap 3 can now react. But now you're nurfing inititaive. Put your PC in the shoes (okay, extremely large clawed feet) of the Ettercap and I'd be willing to bet that you'd be pretty ticked if you win the initiative roll and the DM says: "Sorry, you get to go first, but you just gotta keep doing what you're doing." You haven't really won the initiative then, have you? Just because the DM is following the rules doesn't always mean he is metagaming.
Jutter 03-05-08, 08:41 AM	Don't forget everyone basically acts at the same time during a round. Initiative order is simply an abstraction. And according to that abstraction, the ettercaps go first. According to that same abstraction, the fighter gets his full-round attack off before anybody has a chance to react. You could wonder why nobody did anything after the first hit.... I could try to give a real-life explanation, but I think that's not the point. The 'duskblade' 'casts' a 'spell' at the 'ettercap'. Reality ended then and there. It's a game, and it has rules. The DM is free to adjust those rules as he sees fit (though good DM's explain rulechanges in advance to their players). A DM should consider suggestions for rule changes made by his players. But a DM is not obliged to make ad-hoc rulechanges because his players think 'this is more realistic'. You should hear them complain if it were the other way around. Or if their level 12 barbarian dies from a 200 ft. drop without any damage rolls because 'that is more realistic'. Now I agree the entire situation sounds a bit akward. But don't blame the DM for ruling correctly. Settle it AFTER that particular fight with a houserule, or, if your DM is unwilling to create one, leave it be.
Orenmir 03-05-08, 10:43 AM	Ettercap 1 takes initiative, and continues to do what he has been doing - since the Duskblade has not yet taken an action and there is no apparent threat. Same with Ettercap 2. Initiative is used for combat. That means everybody is aware that there is a battle going on. Why would the Ettercaps do nothing in a battle? If the Ettercaps aren't aware of the combat, then there is a surprise round. The Duskblade and anyone else aware of the battle gets to act in the surprise round. There are usually some sort of skill checks made to determine if a character is aware of the combat. This is typically a spot or listen check often made against an attacker's hide or move silently check. In this case, I would rule it is a sense motive vs. bluff check. The Ettercaps need to sense the motive of the Duskblade to determine if they are being attacked. Any Ettercap that wins this check gets to act in the surprise round. If they all win, there is no surprise round. /my take
PenderGrass 03-07-08, 03:21 PM	re Pendergrass: While I am always looking for ways to make Cha more significant (I make Cha the key ability for will saves in my games, instead of Wis), in this case I disagree. The characters must have already made numerous Cha checks to pull such a fantastic story over on the ettercaps. All the bluffing and motive-sensing has already been done. This is where you are incorrect. Even a dog can sense when its owner is going to swat it with a rolled-up newspaper - and a dog is Man's best friend. The ettercaps may have seen the PCs as being cool and great, but the change from just having them help to actually blasting them with a spell warrants a chance in sensing motive. Virtually anytime the situation changes so significantly should require a new bluff v. sense motive chance. Even most charm spells operate this way. Why have a skill be more powerful than charm? That would be inane and ignorant of the DM. Remember, each decision you make as DM sets a precedent for players to use later in the game. Allowing diplomacy, charisma, bluff, etc. to operate "forever and ever" will not benefit your game. The ettercaps were convinced that the characters are who they say they are, to the point of working for the PCs (to open the gate). So consider them "friendly". Also, 'caps are not smart, probably have no arcane knowledge, and thus have no way of knowing that the spell being cast is malicious until it's too late. Just because someone is convinced that someone is friendly doesn't mean they are foolhardy. Ettercaps are quite cunning (they have a standard 15 wisdom) and also quite intuitive. Even a slight change in posture of the wizard could speak loudly to these ettercaps that he is about to lay a smack-down. A simple parallel example would be a party wizard casting magic missile out of the blue at the party fighter. Since the two are friendly, the fighter has no reason to suspect the wizard is about to blast him, and really no reason to suspect anything wrong. (I suppose you might make a case that the fighter has heard the wizard cast the spell before and know what it is, but he'd probably just wonder "why is he casting that spell now? Is there a monster behind me...?" The fighter is surprised when he gets a couple magic missiles to the gut, then they roll for initiative... Your parallel is incorrect on several levels, some of which I pointed out above - but it is also wrong for the below reason: The fighter should always have a chance to see this coming - so long as there are no other impairments that would interfere with this chance. You, as the DM, may decide that the chance is small and apply the proper penalties - but to deny the fighter even a chance to see it coming is a textbook case of Rail-Roading by the DM. :dragon: *****
nightwing 03-08-08, 12:10 AM	Someone attacking a "friend" out of the blue (call it sucker-punching) is mechanically the same as the party opening a door on a group of enemies and getting a surprise round before they can react. In one instance, bluff/diplomacy checks were made, in the other, listen checks were made. One group got the upper hand on the other (whether by gaining trust or being stealthy), and so gets a surprise round. Simple. A dog's owner, who has the dog's trust, can easily swat the dog before the dog knows what's coming. Everyone with a dog knows that. If a charmed person is attacked, the charm is broken, but not before he is attacked. Being caught unaware by someone you thought was friendly has nothing to do with foolhardiness. You've not convinced me that the fighter should always have a chance to see the wizard's attack before it comes. Why should he? As I said, the two trust each other. I've described realisticly what the fighter sees and what he thinks. Railroading is choosing beforehand the outcome of a scenario, and then forcing that outcome to come to pass even if it means fudging dice rolls/hit points/armor classes (you know, like a train has no choice which way it's going to go...it can only go where the tracks go...) A DM deciding that one side gets surprise on the other is not railroading. It's a normal and universally accepted part of the game. I've made my case; Cowczar may make up his own mind about my ruling on his scenario. I'll say no more. Cheers.
PenderGrass 03-08-08, 03:34 AM	Someone attacking a "friend" out of the blue (call it sucker-punching) is mechanically the same as the party opening a door on a group of enemies and getting a surprise round before they can react. The opening of the door doesn't equate to an automatic surprise round. Dice should be thrown prior to, during and even after the door is opened. An attempted sucker punch doesn't always succeed. In one instance, bluff/diplomacy checks were made, in the other, listen checks were made. One group got the upper hand on the other (whether by gaining trust or being stealthy), and so gets a surprise round. Simple. But what does that have to do with any of this? Step 1: The rolls made were to convince the ettercaps that you were their god and "help open a portal." Step 2: Having them stand there while you are doing something potentially harmful is a way beyond Step 1. Therefore you change posture, tone and even "vibe" if you will. You might try not to, but that means a bluff roll. Unless the harmful spell has no visible components at all, all of these could be seen by the ettercaps as hostile. So, roll again bluff vs. sense motive again. Why? Because I would allow the PCs to get the same damn roll. If I didn't, it would be rail-roading. A dog's owner, who has the dog's trust, can easily swat the dog before the dog knows what's coming. Everyone with a dog knows that. You really treat your dog that way? You might want to seek help. If a charmed person is attacked, the charm is broken, but not before he is attacked. Let us say the ettercaps are under a charm monster spell... Step 1: Convincing them to help open a portal with you. No problem. Step 2: Convincing them to stand there while you blast them with a spell - this is an order that they normally wouldn't want to do. Time for an opposed charisma check. Why? Because I would let the PCs get roll if the victims were reversed. Being caught unaware by someone you thought was friendly has nothing to do with foolhardiness. You are right. Being caught unawares is not paying attention to where you are, or what you are doing. You've not convinced me that the fighter should always have a chance to see the wizard's attack before it comes. Why should he? As I said, the two trust each other. I've described realisticly what the fighter sees and what he thinks. I don't need to convince you. It is plain that you can't conceive a warrior, bloodied by years of combat, combat-training and likely a rough life, can't be aware enough to see someone near him about to clobber him? This isn't to say that either will win - but it is to say that there is chance for it to go either way. To remove that chance....? And force the outcome one way or the either...? Well, you take that one: Railroading is choosing beforehand the outcome of a scenario, and then forcing that outcome to come to pass even if it means fudging dice rolls/hit points/armor classes.... Force the outcome of a situation. Remove possibility of a situation going one way or the either from the game? Yep. Pure choo-choo. :dragon: *****
Man in the Funny Hat 03-08-08, 11:25 AM	It's simple. The ettercaps begin the combat surprised because, although they are aware of you, they are not aware of any impending danger. So, combat begins when you begin casting. You get your free action for the surprise round, then everyone goes in initiative order after that... Not complicated at all. This.